14-06-2002 00:04									#1
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The American Senate has passed the The Hague Invasion Clause, which allows American military action against Holland should an American be tried before the International Court. Bush still has to sign the act.

The Dutch governement reacted shocked and outraged after these events, and are demanding Bush to not sign the act. It is an outrage that a fellow NATO ally openly speculates on a military action against another ally.

Luckely, the Treaty of Brussels demands that the nations that signed it (most west european nations) immidiately step in militarily in any such event (the treaty goes further than article 5 of the NATO charter).

Of course, the US won't dare to attack Holland, not will they succeed, but it's disgusting that they are openly speculating about it, and worse still, they made it into a law. Before all this, it was just talk by a handful of hardliners, but now it's there on paper, the specific conditions that may lead to a military action against a long time NATO ally. We were (one of the) first nations to recognise the US has a sovereign nation 2 centuries ago, and we've had cordial and friendly relations ever since. And this is how they repay us, by a (possible) act of war.

	14-06-2002 00:06									#2
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I wouldn't take it seriously if I was you. No-one else is.

	14-06-2002 00:08									#3
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... sums it up.

	14-06-2002 00:10									#4
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Just don't go rounding up Americans and you should be fine.

	14-06-2002 00:10									#5
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What Kass said.

	14-06-2002 00:10									#6
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I would. So dont arrest any americans without us approving.

And if you really think Europe would come to your aid, your living in a dream world. We would be in and out and have our man on a helo before your media even knew he was missing. And before you could call Berlin and Paris.

	14-06-2002 00:12									#7
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Well I would hope that in the event that the US became an aggressor in this sense, that they would immediately be expelled from NATO and have war declared on them, and with the rest of the world joining in. The Americans should practice what they preach; they like to pride themselves on enforcing international law, if they are found in contravention of it, they should be brought to task.

	14-06-2002 00:12									#8
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory I would. So dont arrest any americans without us approving. And if you really think Europe would come to your aid, your living in a dream world. We would be in and out and have our man on a helo before your media even knew he was missing. And before you could call Berlin and Paris.

Somehow i get the feeling that you really believe that.

	14-06-2002 00:12									#9
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What's wrong with Americans being arrested? They do commit crimes sometimes, you know.

	14-06-2002 00:12									#10
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory I would. So dont arrest any americans without us approving. And if you really think Europe would come to your aid, your living in a dream world. We would be in and out and have our man on a helo before your media even knew he was missing. And before you could call Berlin and Paris.

Two words: Atlantic Ocean.

	14-06-2002 00:13									#11
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quote: So dont arrest any americans without us approving.

You don't have a say in it. Neither have we btw. It's a UN thing.

quote: We would be in and out and have our man on a helo before your media even knew he was missing.

That's what the Germans tried in 1940 too. We killed/captured their entire paratroop division.

	14-06-2002 00:14									#12
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And if you really think Europe would come to your aid, your living in a dream world. We would be in and out and have our man on a helo before your media even knew he was missing. And before you could call Berlin and Paris.

That might be correct, however my penis is significantly larger than your penis.

	14-06-2002 00:15									#13
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And Europe will help us out though. They can't even vote on it. I like the Treaty of Brussels

	14-06-2002 00:16									#14
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fg, you do realise to get to the Netherlands, you have to get across the Atlantic and then past us before you get there. Such an aggressive action on a close ally would not be acceptable and thus access to the North Sea would, of course, be denied. Try it with force, you are next to mainland Britain and Europe, and no matter what your power-projection capabilities are, you couldn't get past that...

	14-06-2002 00:17									#15
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Oh for God's sake! You people (the Dutch) appear to be the most excitable bunch of people I have ever seen. Given that the US calmly accepts people being held prisoner in Saudia Arabia, what makes you think that that US would really raise a stink about you doing the same thing?

	14-06-2002 00:17									#16
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If Bush signs, that's the end of NATO.

What is this, some sort of massive outbreak of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder?

The Taliban have been smashed, OBL is either dead or in hiding, but now the US administration is becoming increasingly irrational.

	14-06-2002 00:19									#17
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"would immediately be expelled from NATO and have war declared on them, and with the rest of the world joining in"

Such juvenile wet dreams as these. Do you have any idea what we can do to you? Or for that matter, what the world could do to us?


I also thing this is a case of silly propaganda from the leftist dutch media trying to instill anti-americanism in people. Sad, such brainwashed masses will make such a big deal about somthing that hasnt been reported as serouis or specified as anything more than harsh wording.

"Somehow i get the feeling that you really believe that. "

Believe what? the dutch posters are the ones going hysterical about all this. I soon would expect such brainwashed people to start building trenches around there cities if the media told them an invasion was imminent.

Besides, if you buy what Marcus is saying, Ive got a bridge I wanna sell ya.

Im trolling, question is. Are YOU?

	14-06-2002 00:19									#18
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There's one quick way of really uniting Europe...

	14-06-2002 00:20									#19
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Threads like this make me think America really would be better off returning to isolatism in terms of international affairs. Trade wouldn't be affected if I had my druthers, but we wouldn't get involved in international disputes. Not a one. Including World War III, should the aggressors stay away from North and Central America. Unfortunately, nations have a way of linking trade to other issues, so isolation would have to be complete or it would be kaput out of the gates.

It's a good thing these types of threads are somewhat rare.

Gatekeeper

	14-06-2002 00:20									#20
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This whole thing is moronic.

-Arrian

	14-06-2002 00:21									#21
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and destroying it again......

Just remember, if you kids start another world war you will never regain your independence. Ever.....and that is official policy

	14-06-2002 00:21									#22
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Such juvenile wet dreams as these. Do you have any idea what we can do to you? Or for that matter, what the world could do to us?

Exactly. You are powerful, but you are not the sole power.

And also remember, this debate (at least in my eyes) is purely hypothetical.

	14-06-2002 00:29									#23
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"Exactly. You are powerful, but you are not the sole power. "

I know, its all talk. You could get a declaration of war and all that. Maybe sink a few american frigates caught off your coasts. Get some kind of imaginary European nationalism thing going. But when the bombs start falling, and there are 400 American warships, including 14 carriers off your coast. you wouldnt last long. A simple bribe or invasion of Iceland would bring us within distance of all of you. Cruise missiles knock out your air defenses and power, and your exposed.

"now the US administration is becoming increasingly irrational."

No its just you people (assuming your dutch?)getting hysterical and frazzled up to the point of no return. Not very civilized, actually.


"And also remember, this debate (at least in my eyes) is purely hypothetical."

Of course this whole thread is a troll. Did you know we have clauses to invade 90 other nations who detain americans? Notice we havent done so?

Just typical BS fieldmarshal marcus trying to rally his army of anti-american trolls.

	14-06-2002 00:38									#24
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory "Exactly. You are powerful, but you are not the sole power. " I know, its all talk. You could get a declaration of war and all that. Maybe sink a few american frigates caught off your coasts. Get some kind of imaginary European nationalism thing going. But when the bombs start falling, and there are 400 American warships, including 14 carriers off your coast. you wouldnt last long. A simple bribe or invasion of Iceland would bring us within distance of all of you. Cruise missiles knock out your air defenses and power, and your exposed. "now the US administration is becoming increasingly irrational." No its just you people (assuming your dutch?)getting hysterical and frazzled up to the point of no return. Not very civilized, actually. "And also remember, this debate (at least in my eyes) is purely hypothetical." Of course this whole thread is a troll. Did you know we have clauses to invade 90 other nations who detain americans? Notice we havent done so? Just typical BS fieldmarshal marcus trying to rally his army of anti-american trolls.

YEAH!!

	14-06-2002 01:10									#25
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note from paiktis, who can't post at the moment:

"if the US ever attacks Holland, I'll be amongst the first volunteers to join the Dutch army!"

Thanks paiktis, I know we can count on the Greeks to aid us.

	14-06-2002 01:12									#26
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Didnt we have an identical thread last week?

	14-06-2002 01:13									#27
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Hmm, maybe we should attack Holland. We could get rid of Marcus and Paiktis in one go. What's the saying? "Kill two trolls with one stone?"

-Arrian

	14-06-2002 01:24									#28
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is this for real? Why would America use military action against Holland anyway?

Can you supply an official link that says if the U.S. Congress actually passed a bill that say this?

Too many questions.....aaah!

	14-06-2002 01:30									#29
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quote: Originally posted by frankychan is this for real? Why would America use military action against Holland anyway?

quote: The American Servicemembers’ Protection Act: An Overview CICC Bulletin June 21, 2001 The House of Representatives of the United States passed the "American Servicemembers' Protection Act of 2001" (ASPA), which restricts U.S cooperation with the International Criminal Court, on May 10 as an amendment to the Foreign Relations Authorization Act of 2001. A vote in the Senate may occur this month (see Regional Update section). The following is a summary of the key provisions of the bill: * The bill restricts U.S. participation in any peacekeeping mission and prohibits military assistance for those nations that ratify the ICC Treaty, with the exception of NATO member countries and other major allies (Australia, Egypt, Israel, Japan, the Republic of Korea, and New Zealand were cited as members of this category). In addition, the bill authorizes the President to use "all means necessary and appropriate" to bring about the release from captivity of U.S. or Allied personnel detained or imprisoned against their will by or on behalf of the Court. * The President may waive this restriction for countries that ratify the treaty if he reports to Congress that such cooperation is in the national security interest of the U.S. and the country has entered into an agreement with the United States protecting U.S. personnel from extradition to the Court. * The U.S. may not participate in any peacekeeping mission unless the President certifies to Congress that the Security Council has exempted U.S. Armed Forces members from prosecution and each country in which U.S. personnel will be present is either not a Party to the ICC or has an agreement with the U.S. exempting U.S. Armed Forces members from prosecution; or that the U.S. has taken other appropriate steps to guarantee that U.S. Armed Forces members will not be prosecuted. * No governmental entity in the United States, including State and local governments or any court, may cooperate with the International Criminal Court in matters such as arrest and extradition of suspects, execution of searches and seizures, taking of evidence, seizure of assets, and similar matters. * No agent of the ICC may conduct in the US any investigative activity. The President should use the U.S. voice and vote at the Security Council to ensure that each resolution authorizing any U.N. peacekeeping operation permanently exempts members of the U.S. armed forces from prosecution by the ICC. * No classified national security information can be transferred directly or indirectly to the ICC or to countries that are Party to the Rome Statute. * The President is required to transmit two reports on allied command arrangements. The first must describe the degree to which members of Armed Forces may be placed under the command or operational control of foreign military officers subject to ICC jurisdiction and evaluate the degree of risk in such arrangements. The second must describe modifications to command and operational control arrangements with allies to reduce such risk. These provisions are in addition to existing U.S. law (the 2000-2001 Foreign Relations Authorization Act) which prohibits any U.S. funds to the ICC, once it has been established, unless the Senate has given its advice and consent to the Rome Treaty.

	14-06-2002 01:39									#30
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Does anyone have a decent article on this? I just remembered that I'm supposed to bring in a press article on "International Law or Diplomacy" to my seminar group tomorrow, and this subject seems ripe with both.