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WesW
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Florence, Al., USA
Jan 1970
time: 23:12
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Everyone, I have good news, and bad news. The bad news is that no one has been able to find the source of the Modern mod crashes, though it hasn't been for lack of trying.
The good news, is that I have enough stuff to put together a second update of the Medieval mod! 
The improvements come from a variety of sources. Some are things that other creators here have developed over the last couple of months, others are the result of feedback from users, and a few things are my own ideas.
Among the smaller changes,
1)I have made Stoneworking the second preq for Domestication. This means Archers will come before Mounted Archers. (Thanks to John L. for his observation.)
2)I also made the Age of Reason a preq for Physics.
3)I have reduced the price of Fyrdmen from 240 to 180, with a similar reduction in support. I also corrected the name.
4)I may increase the ranged attack of Archers to 1.5, depending on what play-testing shows. (John and Madwooster brought this topic back up.)
5)I have also increased the vision range of Wormhole Probes from 1 to 3. (TheBirdMan had his feathers all ruffled up over this.) 
If any of you think that other things could use some fine-tuning, this is the place to be heard!
Among the more significant changes,
1)I plan to use the new Bombard Morgoth is working on as an early cannon, like I did with the early Mouseketeer.
2)This will allow me to use the original Mouseketeer and Cannon as 18th century units, and therefore create a mini-upgrade cycle between the Ren. and Modern age units.
3)I may add some of the earliest advances that I had slated for the Modern mod, but first I want to see if this other stuff works correctly.
4)I plan on re-doing the unit build lists in the aips, like I did for the Mod mod. The original lists were cramped to begin with, and with the addition of all the new units from CD's mod as well as mine, there simply aren't enough of them to do the job, now.
5)I plan to include a version of Nordicus' Trade Goods mod, which combines his work with new goods with Pintello's discovery of how to insert added food and production bonuses into goods tiles. I think that this will add some color, diversity and thrill of discovery to the game. From some user comments, it also helps the AI perform better, which is always a good thing.
6)I plan to add some of the SLIC group's triggers to the mod.
a)One is the garrison trigger, which automatically builds a defensive unit within a city when it is founded. This eliminates those undefended AI cities which we take advantage of, and forces the AI to get some martial law effect, even when it doesn't want any.
b)A second trigger I am going to use is the auto-upgrade trigger. I will apply this to the garrison units, thus ensuring that you will be facing at least one current unit whenever you assault a city.
7)Depending on how play-testing goes, I may reduce unit costs further, and/or increase the numbers of sea and air units per city specified in the aips. I would like to see stacks of these units commonplace, which would add greatly to gameplay, imo. (See page 2 of the Med mod thread for a more detailed listing of what reduced costs can do for the game.)
There will also be some changes to the packaging of the mod.
1)Paul has been kind enough to go in, and re-name all the gl files for the mod, like he did for the Apolyton Pack. For those of you who have used previous versions of the Med mod, this means that you can delete all of the gl texts in the gl folder (except for the original zfs file, of course). This re-naming also got rid of a couple of hundred gls from CD's mod that I hadn't been using.
Note: if you switch from the Med mod to the Apolyton Pack, you will need to paste the gls from it back in the gl folder, since they all will no longer be in there if you do the deletion described above.
2) Don (Scorpion59) has been working hard on making maps for CtP, and I plan on using several of those that he has available.
3) The mod will come already combined with the Apolyton Pack, like it is at my site currently. This will allow you one-step installation, which will be a relief to all of us.
4) One downside to the mod is that it is can no longer be used with prior saved games, at least to my knowledge, which is pretty limited in this aspect.
An upside is that I can formally re-name the mod to version 2.2. Since I plan to combine it with the Apolyton Pack from the outset, I would like to call this the Medieval Mod 2.2 Pack, unless anyone objects.
Note: Proposed slogans for the mod are now being accepted!
From my repeated use of the words *I plan* above, you can see that very little of this has been done, except for all the hard work of others here. I don't know how long it will take to get this put together. (It's taken two hours to make this post.) However, this will allow everyone interested time to post their comments and suggestions.
Thanks to all of you who have offered words of praise and support in the past. I know they have inspired me in my work here, as I am sure they have inspired the others who create the things that we can share here at Apolyton.
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited March 02, 2000).]
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Morgoth
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England
Jul 1999
time: 05:12
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WesW
Sorry but wasn't intending to do the unarmoured heavy cavalry as that is basically what the Javelin Cavalry is!
I've been fidling around a bit with your MOd to add some of my other untis in. I can send you the Advance chart I was using if you want - or any of the other bits?
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DiscoveryOne
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Atlanta, GA USA
Feb 2000
time: 05:12
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COOL! I'm psyched!
As to things that I'd add... I might add any of the Wonders that you've been working on (at least the Medieval and Ancient ones), and I gotta admit... I miss the Chariot and Elephant from Civ II. Also, is the Bombard the same as a Trebuchet? (I may have spelled this wrong...)
My slogan? "What took mankind nearly 7000 years to complete -- recreated by Wes in merely (fill in the blank, depending on when you finish this stuff!)!"
BTW, thanks for the credit. FYI, I'm John LeMaitre, but I changed my UserName when I found out that some of my students play Civ games. I'm trying to avoid getting unwanted e-mails all of the time! (Also, some of my views occasionally expressed on the forums do not gibe with those of the state I work for...! I don't have tenure yet!)
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"No, really! I used to be a Warrior!"
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wheathin
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BirdMan - thanks for the cite. I should note that I now have a higher regard for radar (though not much). I've been using the modified colors file that turns all terrain grey and uses bright shiny colors for the radar map. And Radar has one great use:
It sees all units.
No unit (except if in space, it seems) is invisible to radar (at least, to the GlobeSAT). Corporate branches, stealth submarines, Sea engineers, and infectors - it doesn't matter. They all show up. That said, you still have to go find them, either by bumping into them or using a unit with the appropriate vision ability, so an improvement that can see them would still be a bonus.
Maybe I was an idiot before, or maybe it just was never explained very well. Or maybe that ugly-as-heck radar map you start out with is impossible to use. But at last, I understand.
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Morgoth
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England
Jul 1999
time: 05:12
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WesW
I have a simple sprite already made for the Bombard which I'm using. If you want I can send you the files. At the moment only the movement is done not the attack and death scenes - been playing the game so haven't really doen anything more on the sprites for a while. NB I also have one for the Cog but again not completely finished (TGA,AVI's etc are all done).
Can't remember who asked - Bombard is an early Cannon. Trebuchet is basically a big catapult.
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WesW
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Florence, Al., USA
Jan 1970
time: 23:12
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Morgoth, come on, make the new cavalry unit. It can be called Light Cavalry. Don't you think a game covering the development of civilization should have a light cavalry unit?
And what are you doing, actually playing the game? If *I* don't get to play it, no one should! (I have played CtP for about three hours this year!)
Birdman, my feelings about disasters are- Disasters suck! If the Gaia Controller is getting built before the first disaster occurs, that sounds great to me.
Btw, the changes we made to pollution are detailed in the AAip readme, so that you can set them to your own preferences if you like.
John, let me get this straight...You use CtP as a classroom example to your students, then you get mad when they want to talk about the game with you? That's very snobbish of you.
And remember, Big Brother *is* watching. (Or perhaps one of the little hellions. You decide which could cause you more trouble.)
Wheathin, I am glad you provided the extra info about how radar works. Unless there is some glaring flaw in this part of the game, I would rather not try to fool with installations again. (I had a bad experience with creating a castle for the first Med mod.)
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DiscoveryOne
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Atlanta, GA USA
Feb 2000
time: 05:12
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Wes --
Didn't you hear? The Inquisition is alive and well down here in Georgia...!
Besides, some students would prefer to e-mail me about topics other than CTP....
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Morgoth
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England
Jul 1999
time: 05:12
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Wes
But the early Javelin Cavalary IS a light cavalry unit! That's why I'm not so interested in doing - just another variation.
Next Sprite I intend to do is an Ironclad - and Katy still needs to do a bit more on her Mongol Horse archer.
At the moment though having a go at a variation of your mod.
NB by the way for multiplay I kept getting so many sync problems we gave up on the 'scenario' set up and moved everything to the normal default directories. This works fine now so I guess this may be a general problem with the scenarios (there always seem to be certain glitches in multiplayer mode v single for most games these days!)
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DiscoveryOne
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Atlanta, GA USA
Feb 2000
time: 05:12
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Yeah, at my last school I had a 13-year-old threaten to kill me (he had gang connections), and the school did nothing about it. I left there, and am working at a conservative, but safer, school district now. The job can suck at times, but the benefits rock.
Well, so as not to turn this thread into an off-topic one, I was wondering if you'd be interested in incorporating some ideas I had about religion, especially in the ancient and medieval periods. One thing that I liked about Civ II (don't shoot!; I prefer CTP overall!) was that although cumbersome, trade was handled more realistically, as was religion (or at least better than in CTP). I'd like to see CTP become more than just another turn-based military game. The military is important, but beliefs, the arts, and the non-applicable sciences also made us what we are. I like the non-military CTP units, and think that they should be expanded upon, but lack the skill, knowledge, and software to do so. Tell me if you're interested, and I'll send you a whole BUNCH of junk!
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"No, really! I used to be a Warrior!"
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WesW
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Florence, Al., USA
Jan 1970
time: 23:12
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That's interesting, because I spent a couple of hours tonight surfing around, trying to trace a timeline of Medieval history. I also watched a History Channel program on sea tech, which gave me some ideas.
I am going to add Magnetism, after Ocean Faring, and probably move the Galleon and East India Co. to this advance.
Also, I want to add something for the re-birth of literature that began with the Canterbury Tales, placed after Philosophy. Anybody have a suggestion for the name of this advance?
I would like to put in something either before or after Perspective, dealing with construction. Ideas are welcome here, as well.
I think I may put in the Astrolade before Optics, and the Chronometer after Ocean Faring.
I have talked with Nordicus in the past about adding some advances to represent the Age of Enlightenment, in addtion to those I had planned to add for the Mod mod.
Anyone interested, look over that section of the Mod mod thread, and let me know what you think should be added, and why.
John, feel free to post any links you have to good sites, or specific pages here. I had trouble finding the articles that I know are there on Britannica's web site.
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Wes: if you're describing something as a "re-birth," then how about Renaissance?
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WesW
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Florence, Al., USA
Jan 1970
time: 23:12
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Today's update....
I have decided to take Tim's suggestion, and call this mod the Medieval mod 3.0, since I am putting in some new things, like the SLIC triggers and the re-organized aip build lists.
I would like to take a little poll as to what you think the title of the mod should be. Since most of the new advances and units are post-Medieval, I think the title (which will appear at the top of the Readme) should either be:
1)Medieval Mod 3.0- The Renaissance or
2)Medieval Mod 3.0- The Age of Discovery
Also, I have finished configuring Nordicus's Trade Goods mod. Much thanks to Chuck (ETB) for his help, especially for writing all the gl files. (When you get the mod, be sure to check those out.) Below is a chart detailing the terrains, their goods, and the values of both.
Sheet3
This chart lists the terrain and goods values that are used in the Medieval mod 3.0
Here is a link to ETB's website, which has the chart in the html format it will have in the mod. http://www.duesouth.net/~scbryan/ctp/mmtgv.html
code:
..........................Good1..............Good 2.............. Base
Terrain.................. Gd Tr Fd Pd Prob.. Gd Tr Fd Pd Prob.. Gd Fd Pd
Grassland (Rice, Tobacco) 0 5 5 0 0.50 0 10 0 0 0.50.. 0 15 5
Swamp (Spice, Peat) .......0.10. 0. 0.0.50.. 0 ..5 .0 10 0.25.. .0 15..5
Plains (Wheat,Cotton) .....5..5..0..0.50...0 .5 0 10..0.25 ..0 10 10
Forest (Silk, Apple) ......0 10 .0 .5.0.25.. 0 ..5 .5 .0.0.50.. .5 .5 15
Jungle (Tea, Banana) ......0 .5 .5 .0.0.50.. 0 ..5 10 .0.0.25.. .5 .5 15
Desert (Date, Oil) ........0 .5.10 .0.0.50.. 0 ..5 .0.15 0.25.. .0 .0 10
Hill (Coffee, Grapes) .....0 .5 .5..0.0.50.. 0.10 ..5 .0.0.25....5. .5. 15
Brown Hill (Copper, Silver)0 5 0 10 0.50.. 15 5...0 .5 0.25...5. .0. 15
White Hill(Sapphire,Emerald)5.15 0..0.0.25.. 5 .15 .0 .0.0.25.. 5 ..0 .15
Mountain (Coal, Gold) .....0 ..5 0 15.0.50.. 0 .15 .0. 5 0.50...5 ..0 .20
Brown Mtn (Diamond, Iron) .5 .15 0 .0 0.50.. 0...5 .0 15.0.50.. 5 ..0. 20
White Mtn (Bauxite, Ruby) .0 ..5 0.15.0.50.. 5 .15 .0 .0.0.50...5 ..0..20
Tundra (Caribou, Oil) .....0 .5 10 .5 0.25.. 0 ..5..0 15.0.25.. 0 ..0...5
Glacier (Seal, Walrus) ....0 10..5 .5 0.25.. 0 .10 .5 .5 0.25...0...0 ..0
Beach (Crab, Fish) ........0 .5 10..0 0.25.. 0 ..5 .5..0 0.75.. 5..10...0
Shallow Water(Pearl,Lobster)0 10.5 .0 0.50.. 0 ..5 10..0 0.50...5..10...5
Shelf (Salmon, Oil) .......0..5 10..0 0.50.. 0 ..5..0 15.0.25...5..10 ..5
Deep Water (Whale, Tuna) ..0 .5..5.10 0.25.. 0...5.10..0.0.50...5...5..10
Water Volcano(Diamond,Crab)0.15 .0..5 0.25.. 0 ..5 10..0 0.50..10 ..0 .45
Water Rift ...................................................5 ...5 ..25
Water Trench .................................................5 ...5 ..10
Space ....................................................0 ...0 ...0
Last Updated on 3/5/00
By Wes
I am still looking for proposals on new advances, so be thinking about those.
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited March 05, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited March 06, 2000).]
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DiscoveryOne
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Atlanta, GA USA
Feb 2000
time: 05:12
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I'd probably add Magnetism before Ocean Faring, and I'd add Gravity after Physics. I'd probably also split Aerodynamics into Early and Advanced, and make Machine Tools a prerequisite to the former.
As to your rebirth of literature, how about Prose. I know that Chaucer was actually poetry, but much of the later stuff wasn't.
The construction/perspective thing could be called The Arch or The Flying Buttress...?
I am also for the idea of making the advance chart as complex as possible, without being silly. For example, Evolution requires knowing Domestication, Age of Reason, and possibly Ocean Faring. It would help slow the game down, as far as technology goes, and prevent discovering Evolution without ever figuring out how to tame a horse! It might be needed to tweak the number of turns to get it to balance well, though.
In the stuff I'll be sending to you soon, I also add Evolution, Agnosticism, and a host of religious and theocratic advances.
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DiscoveryOne
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Atlanta, GA USA
Feb 2000
time: 05:12
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Been thinking about your "Arts advances". How about:
Drama (as in CTP standard)
Sculpture
Requires Drama and Stone Working
Leads to Engineering
Wonder: The Maoi of Easter Island
Prose
Requires Writing, Drama
Leads to Mass Media and Perspective
Perspective
Requires Prose and Geometry
Leads to Flying Buttress, Bohemian Movement, and Electrification
Flying Buttress
Requires Perspective and Engineering
Leads to something....(I don't have my stuff with me!)
Improvement: Cathedral
Bohemian Movement
Requires Agnosticism and Perspective
Leads to Abstraction
Abstraction
Requires Bohemian Movement
Leads to Quantum Mechanics and Rock Music
Rock Music
Requires Bohemian Movement, Pharmecuticals
Leads to something....
Wonder: The Woodstock Festival
(Doubles war discontent, but Pharmacies now add +3 happiness)
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"I do not pretend to know that which the less educated and less intelligent are certain of." -- T.H. Huxley
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ETB
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South Carolina
Dec 1999
time: 00:12
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Hey Wes, pretty awesome work on the trade goods for your medieval mod! But your table is a little hard to read. How about just dropping in a pointer to http://www.duesouth.net/~scbryan/ctp/mmtgv.html for something that might be more readable for some folks like me with poor eyesight. I checked all the values on that web table against your table, so I think that they are right (I just used your spreadsheet to make it easy on me). I "caught" what you did with salmon and pearls! Anyway, just load the page on to your website if the values are correct and you want to use it. I'll take it off from my page and edit this message if you do take it.
Also, I have a few questions about the logic of a few of your values. Viola! Through the wonders of technology, your answers have magically appeared!
1) 15 food in a swamp seems high to me. If grassland is 15, swamp should be 5. I've spent a fair amount of time living next to a swamp - it would be tough to live in one!
Wes's Answer: I am using this mod as a continuation of my True Terrain mods. The readme to True Terrain 2 (found in the Med readmes folder) explains this.
2) Should diamonds have the same probability as Iron Ore? I would rather see Iron Ore up around 1 and diamonds around 0.2. Or, in other words, iron is 5 times as prevalent as diamonds.
Wes's Answer: I want the Mountain goods to all be powerful, to give people a tough choice about whether to go after them, even if the surrounding terrain really can't support a city. I created a random gigantic map, and didn't find a single diamond or ruby. I want the percentage high enough so that some of them are scattered around. There were lots of iron and bauxite.
3) Same for Bauxite and ruby. How about 1 for bauxite and .25 for ruby?
4) How about more caribou? Maybe set it at .5 or .75? The tundra is pretty inhospitable terrain, but there are (or used to be) a lot of caribou-type life on it!
Wes's Answer: I didn't want to waste very many goods tiles on the worst terrain, but when they did appear, I wanted them to be powerful, for similar reasons to the mountain goods.
5) Why do diamonds add 5 productivity to an undersea volcano?
Wes's Answer: Sharp eyes, there. By the time you can build undersea cities, I figured diamonds would be used commonly in industry, especially defense, so I figured to have a little fun, and put that in there.
OK, Q&A time is over. I hope this helps you as you finalize your trade goods values. At least it's some food for thought....
Chuck
[This message has been edited by ETB (edited March 08, 2000).]
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WesW
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Florence, Al., USA
Jan 1970
time: 23:12
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OK, Chuck, since you tricked me into answering those questions in an email before I came here, I will leave it to you to edit them into the post above.
Ghen, the beanie baby wonder is hilarious!
Birdman (I might start calling *you* Woodstock!)
I added Chivalry and Theology to simulate Feudalism and Monotheism.
Mapmaking sounds good. I think I will try to get it in.
Steam Engine- already in for Mod mod, I am going to put it in here, as well.
John, according to the History Channel program I saw, Hull Making relates the Viking Longships, which reached Newfoundland.
Magnetism refers to Magellan and that era.
The Theory of Gravity came *after* Physics? I don't know, I am just asking.
Aero- already done for the Mod mod. I'll wait and see about how far along the timeline I want to go for this mod.
Sculpture and Drama sound good. How about another one called Scholasticism? Maybe we could put these around Philosophy, in the Medicine and Electricity lines.
Anyone know the history of Calculus? Seems like it should be in here somewhere.
I think I will add a Classical Music advance. As it is now, no one would ever know Bach or Beethoven existed.
There ought to be something to mark the contributions of Michelangelo and Di Vinci as well.
After this...well, you started getting a little wierd on me, John. The Woodstock wonder was very funny, though, and with appropriate effects to boot.
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited March 06, 2000).]
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DiscoveryOne
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Atlanta, GA USA
Feb 2000
time: 05:12
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Scolasticism? Sounds kind of like Classical Education to me.
I agree about the music and arts stuff, although I think that individual artists should probably be wonders, not advances. (I was thinking of the Mona Lisa, myself.)
Opera, maybe? As to the math, I was thinking of Algebra as well, but don't know how they'd be used in game terms.
You're right about Magnetism; I meant that you need it before you can have Ocean Faring, and the Chinese had it long beforehand. Longships were before magnets.
Yeah, there was work being done in inertia, light, and other aspects of Physics before Newton and his Gravity.
Thanks! I was rather proud of the Woodstock wonder. I tend towards wonders that have some negative side effects. Keeps things interesting.
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"I do not pretend to know that which the less educated and less intelligent are certain of." -- T.H. Huxley
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WesW
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Florence, Al., USA
Jan 1970
time: 23:12
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The mod keeps coming along.
Locutus sent me the finished SLIC triggers today, and those are now inserted into the mod.
I have re-adjusted the probabilities of the goods in that area, based upon some info I have received from ETB.
I have been corresponding with Pintello about advances and units, and I have decided to use Morgoth's Cog as a Columbus-era transport. We can then turn the Galleon into a fighting ship, ala the Spanish Armada.
I am not sure what I will put in next. I think I will add the new Wonders I had slated for the Mod mod first, then the new units, and finally the new advances. I want to put things in one at a time, and test them, so that I won't make the same mistake I did with the Mod mod.
I ran a short test today to see if the triggers and goods worked, and I could tell even from this that these additions are going to have huge effects on gameplay.
The garrison triggers free up large amounts of production for other things, and do it at the most valuable time- immediately after founding, since you usually have to build defensive units the first thing.
The goods, being both more numerous and more valuable than they were previously, add more production, and a lot of gold and science to the game.
The production should allow the AIs to fill out the unit build lists, hopefully resulting in the air and naval battles we would all like to see, plus it may allow the AIs to get to the special units like Marines and SAMs that I have never seen the ai build before, especially with the re-worked aips.
This production can also go to the new Wonders, and perhaps it will keep the ai from going into the max production mode so often, which kiils growth of its cities.
The new science should allow for the introduction of the new advances everyone keeps suggesting without bogging the game down.
To sum things up, the more I see of this mod, and how its different components are interacting, the more excited I am about it.
Once I check a few things tomorrow, I will post the mod, as it stands now, at my home page, available through the link at the top of this post. Then you can get it, and evaluate it for yourselves.
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01-03-2000 03:11
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