15-06-2002 08:57									#1
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The 8 Civs in PtW will be one of these 10 (99.9%)...

1. Mongols
2. Spanish
3. Koreans
4. Carthage
5. Celts (Gauls?)
6. Vikings
7. Arabs
8. Ottomans
9. Incans
10. Hewbrews

Now what if they made a SECOND XP? That means that there would be 8 more on top of the PtW ones (and if PtW is succesful, another XP is not inconcievable...). Two would almost surely be the leftovers from this round. If you could add in 6 more, what would they be?

For me:

11. Mayans
12. Sioux
13. Khmerians
14. Ethiopians
15. Macedonians
16. Byzantines

	20-06-2002 17:37									#2
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Instead of carthage, we should have Phoenicians, as Carthage was just a colony of Phoenicia that became famous because of Rome. Many of the city names used in Civ2 for Carthage were more accurately Phoenician names anyway
Ottomans should be Turks, to have it make sense longer. There were Turks before the Ottoman Empire and there are still Turks, the Ottoman Empire was just a period of history for Turkey.

Byzantium also was just another period of history for Greece-Rome. It was the Eastern Roman Empire that survived after the sac of Rome and became named the Byzantine Empire.
It would be hard to seperate Macedonia from Greece on a Civ3 scale. Alexander the Great, the leader of Greece in Civ3, was a Macedonian

Some other possible civs are the Thai, the Navajo, and the Portuguese

And if we count America as a legitimate civilization, as I think it counts as, we could also add the Canadians and the Austrailians

	21-06-2002 03:29									#3
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I'm thinking this thread more than deserves it's place here..............in a couple of months

btw: IF there is a second XP. I think there will be onethough

	21-06-2002 05:24									#4
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I actually like the Byzantines and Carthage. The culture and military of the former became rather different from Rome, and not including Carthage is like not including America because it was once part of Britain.

For those who want to be PC and include an African civ, maybe Ethiopia? Under the great King Menelek they destroyed a huge Italian army in the 1890's.

BTW, the Spanish civ should NOT have "conquistadores" as a UU. They were just a small bunch of thugs who specialized in murdering Native peoples for gold. The UU should be the Tercio, a combinaton of musketmen and pikemen.

	21-06-2002 05:46									#5
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First, replace the Carthaginians with the Phoenicians. I've been rallying for the Phoenicians to be included for a long while. They're a culture that rarely gets its due.

Now, where were we? Ah, yes.

11. Mayans
12. Ethiopians
13. Mali
14. Navajo
15. Australians (combination of Aborigines and Britons)
16. Khmer

	21-06-2002 06:34									#6
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heh, I'm "SOYGOLD® 2000"

quote: You are a water-rinsible solvent that contains no petroleum distillates. Your low VOCs (4.89%, 43 g/L) has been tested by EPA Method Number 24. You have ultra-low evaporative properties—0.005 @ 76° Fahrenheit relative to n-butyl acetate (NBAC) = 1—and are an FDA approved surfactant.

	21-06-2002 06:51									#7
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SwitchMoO, what does that have to do with the question?

	21-06-2002 09:59									#8
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I would like to know where to find out all the history stuff that you all seem to know. Do you study books and so on. If so can you recommend some as I would enjoy reading about the history of the world. I'm amazed how much people know about history here and I haven't a clue. I know a bit about the major empires and te Arabs but not much else. Thanks

	21-06-2002 10:41									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski SwitchMoO, what does that have to do with the question?

Sorry.

Back on topic, I think Byzantines should be discluded simple for their really close proximity to Rome. It'd be like having, instead of Germany, west and east Germany. THey're just too close, IMHO.

	21-06-2002 11:20									#10
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Actually, Cathage was NEVER a part of Rome. It was a single city of the Phoenecian Empire, an empire which spanned much of North Africa and the Western Sinai Peninsula! In the bible, the Phoenecians were known as the Canaanites, who are the ancestors of the modern Palestinians!! So basically, the Phonecians lost part of their empire to the Hebrews and later, lost several Mediteranean cities during the Punic Wars! For the life of me, though, I'll never understand the ferocity with which the Romans dealt with that city after they conquered it! I mean, to level it is bad enough, but to even SALT the EARTH, to make sure nothing can grow, is just overkill! Apparently, the Romans justified this behaviour by accusing the Phoenecians of sacrificing their own children, which is not too different from the way Hitler slurred the Jews by trying to accuse them of drinking blood!
Well, sorry for rambling on like that, it's just such a very interesting topic! I agree that the Carthaganians should be called the Phoenecians, and in a second XP I'd like to see the Mayans, the Souix, the Hebrews, the Incans, the Hittites, the Khmer, perhaps the Siamese (Thai) and the Ethiopians.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

P.S: I accept that some of my historical points might not be 100% accurate, if I've made any errors, please let me know!

	22-06-2002 03:09									#11
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quote: Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker Actually, Cathage was NEVER a part of Rome. It was a single city of the Phoenecian Empire, an empire which spanned much of North Africa and the Western Sinai Peninsula!

Hmmm, you may want to check your sources again because Carthage was completely subjected by Rome at the end of the third Punic war. It remained a part of the Roman Empire until the Vandals invaded it nearly five hundred years later.

	24-06-2002 04:05									#12
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I am quite certain that the City of Carthage was razed to the ground, not by Vandals, but by the Romans! I'm also very certain that the soldiers went as far as salting the earth after the city was destroyed. It may be possible, however, that the Romans rebuilt the city at a later date stocked, of course, with loyal Roman citizens!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	24-06-2002 04:33									#13
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I don't believe Carthage was ever rebuilt.(at least during Roman times)

	24-06-2002 06:01									#14
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Crash course in Carthaginian history:

Major colony of the Phonecian city-states until those were subjected by the Persians. When this happened, Carthage took it upon itself to protect the minor Phonecian colonies, which it did. It soon rose to prominance and even circumnavigated Africa. Evidence also suggests that their ships reached Brazil! During the First Punic War, Carthage was deprived of their possessions in Sardinia, Corsica, and Sicily and forbidden to go north of a certain river in Iberia (forgot name). Second Punic War deprived them of everthing but Carthage and their African empire. By then, Carthage was completely beat. Third Punic War utterly destroyed the last of the Carthaginian civilization and they razed the city itself. Romans then rebuilt Carthage a few hundred years later where it was a prominant city until the fall of the Byzantine Exarchate of Carthage to the Arabs. The nearby town Tunis rose to prominance after that. The famous Byzantine Emperor Heraclius was from Carthage.

Coracle, what's the difference between a Tercio and a musketman with a bayonet? Conquistadors were not gung-ho idiots. Do you think Cortez destroyed the Aztec without his careful manipulation of the subjected tribes? And I think there are enough defensive UUs in the game. But a Conquistador really should replace the knight with stats like:

5-2-3. The 3 movement signifies that they had light armor.

I really don't appreciate you parading the Tercio around like it's so magnificently brilliant. It's your pet project and you should treat it as such, not treat it like it's the ultimate truth.

	25-06-2002 00:52									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Christantine The Great Major colony of the Phonecian city-states until those were subjected by the Persians. When this happened, Carthage took it upon itself to protect the minor Phonecian colonies, which it did. It soon rose to prominance and even circumnavigated Africa. Evidence also suggests that their ships reached Brazil!

I heard that they reached Mexico, but Brazil? (Actually, it's more believable than Mexico.)

	25-06-2002 03:51									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Vlad Antlerkov I heard that they reached Mexico, but Brazil? (Actually, it's more believable than Mexico.)

Yup, some Brazilian tribes have corrupted Carthaginian words in their languages. It's rumored that the Vikings reached as far as Mexico and a Viking called Quetzocoatl (Aztec name) was supposedly to have reached Veracruz and became the Aztec king. When he was thrown out of power somehow, he said he would return. That's why Cortez and Co. were thought to be gods (blue eyes, beards, like the Viking).

	25-06-2002 06:25									#17
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quote: Originally posted by SwitchMoO Sorry. Back on topic, I think Byzantines should be discluded simple for their really close proximity to Rome. It'd be like having, instead of Germany, west and east Germany. THey're just too close, IMHO.

LOL. Yes, we all know how cultures 1000 years apart are 'too close' to be in, while America and England are 'acceptably different'. I love reading the thrawls of illogic in these forums.

No, Including Byzantium and Rome is not like East and West Germany. It's like including the Vikings and the Russians. The former may have led to the later, but, in time, became very very different.

Anyway, if they made a second expansion, it would HAVE to include both Byzantium and Thailand/Siam.

Other civs I'd include:

Incas
Mayans
Tibetans


Also, South East Asian countries are very different from each other, even more so than North East Asia, so it would be entirely plausible for Firaxis to have Vietnam in there, as well as Thailand.

	25-06-2002 09:35									#18
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I don't know why people debate the fact that the Americans are in CivIII. There is NO logic, so why try to find some?

I attribute it to penis envy.

	25-06-2002 09:49									#19
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How about the fact that the Byzantines were the later Roman Empire.

Civ goes to war. Civ loses capitol. Civ survives with new capitol. New civ?

	25-06-2002 09:52									#20
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That's what I've been arguing, but to no avail.

	25-06-2002 19:47									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Christantine The Great Yup, some Brazilian tribes have corrupted Carthaginian words in their languages. It's rumored that the Vikings reached as far as Mexico and a Viking called Quetzocoatl (Aztec name) was supposedly to have reached Veracruz and became the Aztec king. When he was thrown out of power somehow, he said he would return. That's why Cortez and Co. were thought to be gods (blue eyes, beards, like the Viking).

Really? That's fascinating. Is there any evidence to support this? You say its a rumor. I took a course on Meso American civilizations and remember the beleif that the Spaniards were gods. Quetzlcoatl was the first Aztec king, was he not?

Those crazy Vikings.

	25-06-2002 21:46									#22
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Yeah, gotta love us!


I've never heard this story before, but of course, it's all historical accurate! Trust me!

	26-06-2002 01:21									#23
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http://phoenicia.org/carthanewworld.html

Tons of info on Carthage there.

The stuff about Quetzocoatl, though, is really pure speculation. It fits together fairly well, though.

	26-06-2002 02:09									#24
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Of course it does! BTW, the link you gave, was very good indeed! Very interesting!

	28-06-2002 22:20									#25
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I don't think that a second XP would include as many civs as the first one. They would probably add just two more civs... the Portuguese and the Dutch, I think.

If a second XP ever sees the light of day, I'd like it to add a lot of fluff (wonder movies, animated council, 3D terrain, a separate battle screen, an animated city view, a more interesting message system [using stone tablets and newspapers], voiceovers and... hmmm... wait a minute, I'm talking about civ4! Firaxis, take note.)

	29-06-2002 02:54									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Alexnm If a second XP ever sees the light of day, I'd like it to add a lot of fluff (wonder movies, animated council, 3D terrain, a separate battle screen, an animated city view, a more interesting message system [using stone tablets and newspapers], voiceovers and... hmmm... wait a minute, I'm talking about civ4! Firaxis, take note.)

Less fluff, more substance.
(Buildings, wonders, customization options...)