16-06-2002 02:18									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse red_jon, I sneak out of the house too. It hasn't affected my sexual education though.

Well my point is that without sex education from school I wouldn't have had it (maybe a moot point considering we were taught straight sex...)

	16-06-2002 02:21									#32
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I wouldn't have had formal sex education either, but I still learned it from other places.

	16-06-2002 02:23									#33
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Because parents don't always do what is in the best interests of their child. I have to sneak out of the house to go on dates.

So you want the state to take that responsibility away from the parents and you want the state to get further in the business of deciding what is right and what is not right.

Maybe we should do away with parents completely. Make it to where the state takes children away to be raised in the proper setting without those ignorant parents.

	16-06-2002 02:29									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber So you want the state to take that responsibility away from the parents and you want the state to get further in the business of deciding what is right and what is not right. Maybe we should do away with parents completely. Make it to where the state takes children away to be raised in the proper setting without those ignorant parents.

Not all parents are responsible. We need the state to fill in the gaps where some parents fall short. This doesn't mean that all parents will fall short, but it is important that ALL teenagers are fully informed.

	16-06-2002 02:32									#35
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The state can't fill all the gaps, and even if it is taught in schools many people won't pay attention for one reason or another - especially during the important parts.

	16-06-2002 02:43									#36
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Not all parents are responsible. We need the state to fill in the gaps where some parents fall short. This doesn't mean that all parents will fall short, but it is important that ALL teenagers are fully informed.

So what's wrong with active parents being able to have some say in what is taught? Here in the US at least, education is a local matter paid by local taxes. Don't you think they should have say in what is taught especially with issues where the school is trying to be a surragate parent? I don't expect a parent to choose physics books, but they should have a say in what their child hears about sex.

	16-06-2002 03:50									#37
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quote: There is no official stance. They are generally considered wrong. Another widely accepted theory is that as long as you practice faith, hope, and love sex is fine

What a crock. The Pope has issued, IIRC, 3 statements prohibiting most contrceptive means, and one of them had infallibility attached to it.

	16-06-2002 03:57									#38
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Only twice has a pope used infallibilty, it those two times have been long ago.

You have three main theories about sin in the Catholic Church. One of them is called Virtue Ethics. Basically, as long as you strive to be virtuous, you're fine. The other two have to do with intent and action. Both say, if the action is for good, then it is alright. One of the two says if the intent is good, but the action bad, the good intention outweighs the bad - making it moral.

Just because the pope says something, doesn't mean everyone is required to believe it - unless it is ex cathedra. Like I said before, ex cathedra has only been done twice.

	16-06-2002 06:34									#39
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Abstinence is the only effective form of AIDS prevention.

	16-06-2002 06:37									#40
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the ends justify the means?

	16-06-2002 08:00									#41
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Apoclaypse is correct regarfing infallibility.

The RCC position on birth control is bullshit. The Church claims to the purpose to intercourse is procreation However:


Cathecism 1654: (regarding infertile married couples)

quote: Spouses to whom God has not granted children can nevertheless have a conjugal life full of meaning, in both human and Christian terms. Their marriage can radiate a fruitfullness of charit, of hospitality, and sacrifice.

So if the purpose is intercourse, than why can infertile couples still have sex? Isn't there act still contrary to the natural order then if it can't fufill it's intended purpose? And why is it possible for those who can't procreate due to nature or injury to have a connjugal life of fruitfullness but not those who chose to have intercourse with the same effect to contraception? The Church's position on Birth Control is not consistent with other Catholic doctrine and does not have scriptual support that I am aware of. Furthermore, considering the prevalance of disease and overpopulation, it does far more to aid the dignity of man that the Church talks about by using our resources to try to help provide decent lives to the people who are here rather than adding more people that the world struggles to support. It would cause great poverty in the near future if every Catholic family would go back to having around 10 children.

Fourtunately, the Church does at least acknowlege the other argument:

quote: Neither is it valid to argue, as a justification for sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive, that a lesser evil is to be preferred to a greater one, or that such intercourse would merge with procreative acts of past and future to form a single entity, and so be qualified by exactly the same moral goodness as these.

-Pope Paul VI, Humane Vitae

	16-06-2002 08:04									#42
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quote: Originally posted by H Tower the ends justify the means?

Are YOU talking to me? Are you talking to ME?

If you had a little experience with the ends I don't think you'd ask that question. AIDS is a horrible way to die, but its also a horrible way to live.

	16-06-2002 08:07									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Are YOU talking to me? Are you talking to ME? If you had a little experience with the ends I don't think you'd ask that question. AIDS is a horrible way to die, but its also a horrible way to live.

no, i was just too slow to get my post in before yours, i was referring to Apocalypse's post

	16-06-2002 08:28									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber So what's wrong with active parents being able to have some say in what is taught? Here in the US at least, education is a local matter paid by local taxes. Don't you think they should have say in what is taught especially with issues where the school is trying to be a surragate parent? I don't expect a parent to choose physics books, but they should have a say in what their child hears about sex.

...do you guys actually think that sex education in schools would prevent parents from educating their children?

	16-06-2002 08:48									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ade ...do you guys actually think that sex education in schools would prevent parents from educating their children?

It would make the old "cabbage patch" story look pretty lame, thus diminishing the parent in the children's eyes.

	16-06-2002 08:50									#46
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I've always liked the mormon sex education; don't talk about it & let them figure it out after their wedding.

	16-06-2002 09:01									#47
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quote: Originally posted by H Tower the ends justify the means?

That is one theory. I'm not saying I believe that, but that is what many Catholic scholars believe. The almost all the scholars who don't believe that believe in one of the other two.

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi So if the purpose is intercourse, than why can infertile couples still have sex? Isn't there act still contrary to the natural order then if it can't fufill it's intended purpose? And why is it possible for those who can't procreate due to nature or injury to have a connjugal life of fruitfullness but not those who chose to have intercourse with the same effect to contraception? The Church's position on Birth Control is not consistent with other Catholic doctrine and does not have scriptual support that I am aware of.

Totally infertile couples aren't even suppose to get married in the Catholic Church. As long as there is a chance, no matter how insignificant, that the union could be procreative then they can have sex and get married. This allows for pretty much everyone to get married since you can always argue a chance. This is backed by scripture, though I can't remember off hand which Gospel it is from. One of the reasons for Catholicism to have virtually no official set of what is what is right and wrong is because he Church believes that the Gospels aren't completely accurate. The vast majority of Catholic scholars believe that Jesus didn't say most of what was recorded, and probably didn't say many other things. They are only sure of a small amount. The remaining few things they believe be probably said.

	16-06-2002 09:08									#48
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The vast majority of Catholics don't follow official doctrine regarding birth control and a number of other popular social issues, and they're not particularily concerned about papal infalibility, yet this does not diminish the faith of the ones I know.

	16-06-2002 09:11									#49
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If they aren't concerned with the two ex cathedra statements, I don't know why they are Catholics. They are both pretty major. If I only could remember them. I'm being raised as a Catholic, but I'm probably closer to those No Free Will Buddhists than any other religion.

	16-06-2002 09:45									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse If they aren't concerned with the two ex cathedra statements, I don't know why they are Catholics. They are both pretty major. If I only could remember them. I'm being raised as a Catholic, but I'm probably closer to those No Free Will Buddhists than any other religion.

Well face it, you and I just don't know and never will. I've been trying to nail my Catholic friends on that sort of thing half my life, but everytime I think I've got one backed into a corner they just smile and wiggle out of my grasp. I don't know, maybe they're in it for the faith or something like that.

	16-06-2002 12:26									#51
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"Totally infertile couples aren't even suppose to get married in the Catholic Church."

Where does it say this in thie Cathecism? Or was this is an encyclical(If that's the case, a linkwould be appreciated)

	16-06-2002 12:31									#52
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AFAIK (and I may be wrong on this, as I was on the the extent of the Church's repudiation of contraception), there's nothing against an infertile couple marrying. Also, the priests that I knew claimed that while the position of the Church up till around VaticanII was that sex was purely procreative, the position currently is that its usefulness is threefold:

1) Procreation
2) To cement marital bonds
3) Pleasure

	16-06-2002 14:22									#53
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The only sure way to stop teenage pregancies is death. Write your congressman today calling for mandatory execution of everyone under the age of 20.

On a more serious note: Move to California, the only state in the union that refuses to sell out their kids future. (i.e. they refuse the federal bribe and continue to teach their kids about sex).

	16-06-2002 14:45									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I don't expect a parent to choose physics books, but they should have a say in what their child hears about sex.

Why?

	16-06-2002 15:42									#55
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I'm not sure how exactly the americans deal with it, but I personally am sick and tired of sex education, we've had it 3 times already in 6 years of 'high school' and then there's the 2 times we've looked at it in a more scientific way (biology class)... hell we've even had it in our last year of elementary school! I mean, teenagers know about it! And then i haven't even mentioned tv, etc...and conversations with friends where teenagers hear "things"! I just think that teenagers don't walk around all day with a condom in their pocket, and when something happens they just * without it, and also buying condoms is still a delicate matter i think, most kids don't dare ask their parents for condoms...

Same thing with drugs really, we've had drug education twice already, i know exactly what kind of drugs there are, how they look like, how they work, what i should look out for etc.. kids know all about it, but that doesn't prevent them from taking drugs.

	16-06-2002 16:17									#56
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Yeah, by the time we had sex education in school I was already very 'knowledgeable' about the subject in general anyway

Still, if it cuts the teen pregnancy rate/spread of AIDS/etc by any amount it's worth it IMHO.

	17-06-2002 00:22									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi "Totally infertile couples aren't even suppose to get married in the Catholic Church." Where does it say this in thie Cathecism? Or was this is an encyclical(If that's the case, a linkwould be appreciated)

People who get married are suppose to be open to having children.

	17-06-2002 01:05									#58
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Of course I know the RCC says that. But where does the Church say totally inferitle couples can't get married? The Cathecism definitely seems to indicate that they can.