14-03-2000 08:00									#1
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50 maps yeah. But u know how to install them. I downloaded 4 but ....
they had no readme!! Hey No se olviden del pobre!!

	14-03-2000 11:09									#2
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Chapita,

Well, I am in the process of repackaging the files for Apolyton. These files will have a Readme and some additional information.

I didn't do that initially with the maps because I created a section called 'Instructions' on my site. It has 'instructional' information in it and available for download as well. Like how to load, save, setup, add Civs, specify start locations, change map sizes, etc. The stuff you need to create a playable map. Basically the same type of information found in a Readme.

What I have found though is, nobody reads any instructions nor do they read any information on the front page. I'm hoping they might read a readme if I include one with the maps. Other than that, I don't know what else I can do to make it easier.

I welcome comments, ideas, thoughts, etc on this subject. Knowing all this by heart, it is hard to judge what others can and can't understand.

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Don,
Apolyton CtPMaps
[This message has been edited by skorpion59 (edited March 14, 2000).]

	15-03-2000 13:28									#4
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MKL,

Yeah, me. I am putting together developement maps and finished maps. Finished take much longer so I figured I would put what I had out there. This way people could look at them and tell me which maps they want customized (or build their own).

Either nobody understands (likely) or nobody really wants maps. Either way, I can just pick the maps I want to do. Since map philosophy seems to be to hard or to much trouble for most people, I have decided to go back to Map Scenario Pack setups. This was my original way but I gave it up because the file sizes were quite a bit bigger (I have a 30-map pack which I had been working on but it is about 8.5M). That is what I am doing now. I will create 1-map packs, 10-map packs, country-specific packs, etc. I just hate to spend hours and hours on a map nobody wants when it could of been put in on a map which people would like.

So, yes, better maps will become available soon. In fact, I am putting together a second computer right now just to speed up the process.

Which World and Australia maps are you referring to?


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Don,
CtPMaps at Apolyton

	16-03-2000 04:54									#5
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Thanks again. There are people who appreciate all your hard work and effort.

I was looking at Aus5-70x140F and JWorld-100x100R

btw, what does the 'F' and 'R' stand for? Excuse my ignorance. I never got into importing Civ2 maps.

- MKL

	16-03-2000 11:23									#6
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Myself, I played on the world maps, and the "old world" map of civ 2, which I had heavily modified to be more realistic. Mostly, though, I played on random maps that I had heavily modified so that they were optimized for AI development.
Roughly the same thing for SMAC. I took the "world" map, and altered it so that the AIs would develop evenly and well, so that I had about five or six opponents who could, hopefully, give me a competitive game.

Realistic maps are good for scenarios, and if people want to take the time to do it, they could make scenarios that played out like the Conflicts in Civ scenarios "should" have played out. (Anyone else think that was a very disappointing expansion? The only ones worth fooling with were some of the Best of the Net.)

I would like a really good map of, well, everything *but* the New World, and one of the US east of the Rockies for a Colonial and/or Civil War scenario. This is addition to Europe and Eurasia. Also, world maps normal, huge and gigantic sizes. People will probably want one of the Med-Cradle of Civ area (basically Spain to Persia), like the Roman scenario in civ 2.

I have been surprised at the large numbers of maps you are and will be making. I might have done a few finished, really accurate ones first, and then taken requests from that point.
I expect that people will start using them once they learn how to set them up.

	16-03-2000 12:35									#7
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just to say thanks, cause the last 4 days I'm playing on the grc1 map...
due to it's existance, I have been motivated to come up with the related "greek civs" to match the map. you never know, you might actually see it as an add-on for the apolyton pack

I would be interested to see an "alexander the great" map
[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited March 16, 2000).]

	16-03-2000 18:26									#8
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MKL,
Flat and Round. This designates whether the Civ2 map was a flat map or a round map.


Wes,
As far as finishing a few and then taking requests, I couldn't agree with you more, now. You know what they say about hindsight.

Markos,
You have any Civ2 'Alexander The Great' resembling maps in mind or are you speaking in general terms?

Part of the reason for doing the maps is my hope that others will start creating scenarios like they do with Civ2. As it stands now, we have everything needed to do a WW2-based scenario.

One additional thought. When I don't play on realistic maps, I do like Wes said and spend some time customizing the random map which was created. Anybody have any thoughts on adding these types of customized maps to the database?

Anyway, thanks for the information guys. It is appreciated (very much so) and gives me a direction to go in. The work I do is for the benefit of others, not myself. Heck, I find it hard these days to actually find the time to play a game just for the fun of it.


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Don,
CtPMaps at Apolyton

	16-03-2000 20:55									#9
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well, there is a scenario and a modpack on the topic in our civ2 db, as well as a scenario in csc. I'll look into them and get back to you.

is there also the chance to work with images? do you have any experience in that?

	17-03-2000 04:50									#10
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Markos,

When you say images, are you referring to new unit graphics? If so, not really. I did some images in Civ2 but Gemini and Morgoth seemed to have a really good handle on the CtP side. The work they do is simply outstanding. If it meant getting some quality scenarios going, I would consider jumping back in with both feet. Although, with all I am doing now, that should probably say, jumping back in with one-third of a foot.

I can check out the Civ2 DB and CSC for the Alexander files. I don't know why I didn't think about that myself since I practically live in your Civ2 DB.


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Don,
CtPMaps at Apolyton

	17-03-2000 05:45									#11
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no, I'm talking about using a bmp(or something like that) image as the source foe the map. I remember that maputility supported something like this...

	17-03-2000 17:41									#13
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Markos,

Regular BMPs don't work at all but they never were supposed to. Only the special NOAA-type BMPs are supposed to work and I have yet to find any of those. I have also tried SMAC maps. They will give you some kind of outline but nothing else. The problem is these maps use map elevations different from how Civ2 and CtP use them.

You also have to remember the Map Utility program doesn't work correctly. No CtP map that is produced by it is playable and I have found only about 40% of the Civ2 maps will be read by it. Of that, 50% will not convert at all. The majority of the work is done by hand, tile-by-tile. If you look at my maps, some are Civ2 sizes and some are CtP sizes. This is because early in the game I had not figured out how to make a smooth translation from a Civ2 size to a CtP size. As it stands now, most maps have about a 1.5 ratio and are pretty easy. The odd size Civ2 maps are still more trouble than there worth and will be saved for last.

Locutus,
But who says the British have to help out the French? Ultimately, one country has to win which is not how it really happened. No game, not even Civ2, follows history exactly and I don't think I would want it to. After one game, it would be boring. It is the concept and theme of WW2 that the scenario would be about. And you are right about the CtP alliance strategy, it is not the best. However, since the AAIPs came out, I have maintained an alliance through the entire game in CtP but have never been able to do this in Civ2. IMHO, most people understand the shortcomings of the game they like and would be willing to overlook certain issues which can't be controlled because of that. Just my 2 cents worth.

If nobody else does anything by the time I finish my major projects, my next agenda will be to create a totally new scenario. The first thing I will do is remove Sea cities, space (entirely), half the wonders, two-third the units, etc. Instead of 4000 years it will be 40 years (or 400, whatever fits the timeline). The point is, there is a lot that can be done with CtP but nobody is doing it. Look at Wes' Med/Mod mod work.


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Don,
CtPMaps at Apolyton
[This message has been edited by skorpion59 (edited March 17, 2000).]

	17-03-2000 23:02									#14
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Don, you do make some good points, but Wouter is right about alliances: even with AAIPs, you'll get a mighty blue face holding your breath and waiting for your ally to fight your enemy by your side.
I looked into this and the only way the AI will do anything is if it has been attacked by your enemy or if all the planets are in alignment--> it "worships" you, it has the army to do it, it has hatred for the mutual enemy.
The only thing I've concluded is that if all these factors are present, the AI should be willing and able to fight along side you.
But I certainly agree a lot has yet to be done--hell, a lot hasn't even been tried yet

	18-03-2000 14:49									#15
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I have yet to ever have an 'Allied' Civ fight side-by-side with me in any Civ-Series games. Yes, they go to war but they never fight any battles. The closest would probably be in SMAC and that is just because it has so much more Diplomatic dialog. Are you telling me this actually happens?

	18-03-2000 19:53									#16
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I must admit I haven't played an awful lot of Civ2 games (about 2 years ago I was still playing on a slow 486 and a XT , Civ1 was the only Civ-game that ran on those systems), especially not when it comes down to scenarios, but I must admit that side-by-side fighting is pretty rare in any Civ game.
And of course a scenario shouldn't be too realistic, but I don't really like playing a WWII scenario in which I play the British and find myself fighting the Americans with the Germans as my allies or fighting the Germans but with the Americans standing on the sideline doing absolutely nothing.
Anyway, I think I'll just give it a try. If I fail at least no-one can say that I didn't try I'll download some maps to get an idea of what size the map should be and let you, Don, know if I need a customized map. Since I have plenty of other things to do as well the work won't go very fast, but at least someone is giving it a try...

Locutus

	19-03-2000 04:51									#17
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Locutus,

I see your point but I actually think that can be addressed. Since it is a scenario, customization will help. You can make the Americans, Britains, French the same personality types while making Germans a separate type and even the Russians something else. This alone will not fix the problem but I think you see where I am coming from. Even new, custom types can be created.

You are like me. You need to add one more thing to your plate about as much as you need a hole in your head. However, if your willing, I would be willing to help. (Did those words just come out of my mouth?) I firmly believe that once people see what can actually be accomplished, they would be more willing to start creating some scenarios.

UPDATE: I just read Paul's government idea in the Creation-Different Racial Attributes thread. This concept could also be applied to further bind together allies as well as be used to keep Civs from building other Civs units. Just a thought.

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Don,
CtPMaps at Apolyton
[This message has been edited by skorpion59 (edited March 18, 2000).]

	19-03-2000 18:13									#18
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Don,

So you're saying I'm gonna have to go into the AI-files he? I was afraid of that. I tried it several times already but so far I can't make heads or tails of it Well, I guess I give it another try. I think I'll eventually need some help from the specialists on this area though...

Don't worry about me doing too much: once the MedMod stuff (can't be too much work anymore) and the flat-map stuff (which has to be finished first anyway, it's needed for the scenario) is finished , I only have the SLIC work for the SLIC-group and the WWII scenario. I should be able to handle that. And as you said, once people see what is possible, they'll start making things themselves, so it's important someone starts it.
I'm going to need help with this scenario, so your offer is much appreciated and gladly accepted. I'll start a thead about this in the Creation Forum tomorrow or so (I first have to pass an important exam) and see what help I need and can get.

Yes, the Racial Attributes thread offers some interesting points for this and any other scenario.

Well, off to my study-books now...

Locutus

	21-03-2000 08:26									#19
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Don, no, I haven't seen it yet either. I haven't seen the AI use nukes at all either--another thing worthy of modification
I did have an ally, during AAIPs testing, start to fight a common emeny, but this was only after I got its regard up to Worship and it was attacked by the civ. It (the Chinese) marched two stacks of units across my territory and put a city under seige. (Then I wiped out whatever civ that was and backstabbed the Chinese, so I never saw more of this ) I don't know if a peaceful civ would have had the nuts to try that...maybe if they were next the civ, but I thought that was really something for a civ who was nowhere near its enemy....If that setting could be maintained for a long time, in the AI's mind, then we might have something....

Locutus:
You and Gemini really ought to talk--he's still working on his own WWII scenario, but I'm sure he'd appreciate some help (he wants to finish before next winter!)
Maybe start a thread on it...maybe there'll be some people open to help on it now, I dunno....


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"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.

"The more passion for the argument, the less evidence for it"--Russel.

"If you don't agree with me, you're in denial."

	21-03-2000 12:22									#20
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When I have been able to maintain alliances through an entire game, I had to be very nice to them. Once you stab them in the back, they never forget it.

The AI flat doesn't use Nukes. Even when I have given them Nukes and then started Nuking them, they wouldn't Nuke back. (Locutus, this is one reason Nukes will not be a problem for flat-map support.)

And, yes, to do the allied thing like you are talking about (in a WW2 scenario), AIPs will have to be altered.



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Don,
CtPMaps at Apolyton

	23-03-2000 07:22									#21
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Yes, I know.

The thing to do would be to get into the aips and play around with the PRIORITIES of the AI--like double plant_nuke_priority (when does the AI actually do this?) and double nuke_city_priority.

[Hey, just saw this-->
double defuse_mines_priority
again. Forgot about that--they had tried to get mines into CtP, hey? I wonder if that is possible with Slic....]

Anyway, these and the MAX_EVAL and MAX_EXEC goals per city should be adjusted...as well as the build list.

	24-03-2000 03:13									#22
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Nord,

Nope, the code for the mines (land mines) has not been completed. It is just another unimplemented feature.


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Don,
CtPMaps at Apolyton

	26-03-2000 12:00									#23
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I don't to rain on any parades here, but I would be very surprised to anyone was able to get the AIs to work together properly to simulate allies, especially with the complexities of an amphibious landing like you are talking about for a WWII sim. Hell, we can't get the AI to make amphibious landings much in a regular game!
None of the Civ games have an AI capable of doing this, and I am afraid ctp's AI just doesn't have it in it either, regardless of how much you adjust the aidata files.
I am fairly sure it would have to be done through the diplomacy files, though. I don't know much about those, so if you want to give it a try, no one would be happier to see you succeed than me.

I would suggest setting up this scenario for multiplayer, perhaps with different verisons for different numbers of human players. You could let the AI handle the neutrals, but the main players would have to be human to get realistic games, imo.

	26-03-2000 16:18									#24
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Wes,

I think we all know it is impossible (those of us that have worked on this area before anyway) and I personally don't want to play the game that way.

However, others want scenarios to work that way so I figured it wouldn't hurt to try a few things just to see what happens.

No Civ game yet has even come close to getting past the "All Civs for Themselves Only" mentality. That is simply not built into the game.

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Don,
CtPMaps at Apolyton
[This message has been edited by skorpion59 (edited March 26, 2000).]

	27-03-2000 00:10									#25
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Wes:
No, I don't rationally forsee any historical World War-type cooperation. Setting expectations that high would be silly. But even if we could alleviate the problem with building up an alliance with the AI and keeping it, that would be great. We know the AI doesn't have this problem among itself--it could be set to absolutely despise another civ or group of civs or worship them. This would of course *help* alliances stay in one piece as well as keeping regard static; also, AI civs joined by the aip, so to speak, will have the same enemies and so will always be fighting those same enemies--how well they fight together is another story. Asking your AI ally to attack your enemy will be redundant: if the aip you and the AI are in is set to hate another aip, then your ally will either be fighting that enemy or planning to.
I dunno, I think it can work. How well, uh, only testing can show that.

The only snags, I presume, will be if you attack your inherent ally--if you are, say, China, and your allies are the Mongols, Thai, and Russia. Everyone worships everyone in this aip. Okay, you decide to attack Russia--there's code that dictates that, having a Worship regard *and* an Alliance, it will let a few attacks go before it gets angry and fights back--but we know what Russia will do: Russia will, eventually, fight back. But what will Mongolia and Thailand do? Nothing? Fight Russia too? Or fight you? Any civ that attacks a civ in the aip is essentially attacking them all, so, I dunno.
And I have yet to prove that new aip inputs can be recognized by CtP. This is the first thing I have to see about--otherwise, none of it will work.

	30-03-2000 15:54									#26
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Hi guys,

I've been off-line for a week or so (due to problems with my computer), so you haven't heard much from me (anyone miss me? ) but I'm still interested in that WWII scenario. I'll continue with it this weekend or so, I'm a bit busy with school right now. Just letting you guys know I'm still alive...

Locutus