16-06-2002 02:13									#31
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As panag states above, a parliamentaristic role of a senate/parliament would fit to the best of the people...
Which persons should we then vote into this Polish reichstag?
A reprepresentative collection of organized parties?
Powerhungry hotshot individuals? The national brandy associaton? Well, I sense an awful lot of bueraucracy...

Anyway, there has to be a straight representation of the people, since a senate/parliament is the kernel of a modern democracy. Ok... an ancient democracy, however, did not need this kernel in the same degree.

	16-06-2002 02:17									#32
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat As panag states above, a parliamentaristic role of a senate/parliament would fit to the best of the people... Which persons should we then vote into this Polish reichstag? A reprepresentative collection of organized parties? Powerhungry hotshot individuals? The national brandy associaton? Well, I sense an awful lot of bueraucracy... Anyway, there has to be a straight representation of the people, since a senate/parliament is the kernel of a modern democracy. Ok... an ancient democracy, however, did not need this kernel in the same degree.

hi ,

5 members , no political endorsement , just plane simple 5 senators , in every meaning of the word , ......

no power hungry people here , ......
and we have just have respect for each other , and the law , .......

have a nice day

	16-06-2002 02:26									#33
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hi ,

president --- SENATE

vice president

ministeries

ADVISORS

PEOPLE

maybe this is an

have a nice day

	16-06-2002 02:27									#34
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , a drunken one , all ready , sjeee , put him in the tank , ....wait a minute , where is the evidence , present it on the floor , or thou shall not speak bad , .... max number of senators , 5 have a nice day

A drunken senator could be the only one to come up with such a horrible example! I think thats a good indication, though not hard evidence. I wouldn't care to pursue the matter any closer, since no one is elected for the Senate yet... (I sense there will be an awful lot of Reichtag-manners in this Senate...)

	16-06-2002 02:30									#35
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat A drunken senator could be the only one to come up with such a horrible example! I think thats a good indication, though not hard evidence. I wouldn't care to pursue the matter any closer, since no one is elected for the Senate yet... (I sense there will be an awful lot of Reichtag-manners in this Senate...)

hi ,

well , the senate is a lose standing body of the government , created by the people , ......who are having fun at this moment , ........ , ....

no reichstag stuff is allowed in our senate , that would be against the will of the people , and the constition , ..

have a nice day

	16-06-2002 03:34									#36
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BTW. Senate threads might be useful as the forum for any and all citizens to voice their thoughts on many aspects of our society, our government, and our progress. Might help keep down the number of miscellaneous threads, if that's a good idea.

	16-06-2002 03:38									#37
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither BTW. Senate threads might be useful as the forum for any and all citizens to voice their thoughts on many aspects of our society, our government, and our progress. Might help keep down the number of miscellaneous threads, if that's a good idea.

hi ,

excellent ,

and we could do a kind of "census" , ones in a while , ...

have a nice day

	16-06-2002 04:11									#38
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A census?

	16-06-2002 04:13									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard A census?

hi ,

yep , a "census" , .... a demographic collection of intel , , ahem read information .

have a nice day

	16-06-2002 04:15									#40
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Of what (the people playing, the Civ game)? What on earth would we find out? And Why?

	16-06-2002 04:24									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard Of what (the people playing, the Civ game)? What on earth would we find out? And Why?

hi ,

well , the census , lol , the info would be that really needed , as most can be collected from the SAV and so , jus , to see maybe ones in a while what people think , its the first time ever for a civ3game , so that information is really usefull to a couple people , ....always nice ....
and there would have to be an F-11 , .....

have a nice day

	16-06-2002 04:33									#42
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If I understand clearly, the senate would be :

- a place for the most involved -but not power hungry- citizens to control the government.
- a place which states what the government should do, and where poeple there are petitioning the government.
- a place to think over the aspects of our society, etc.

Did I understand clearly ?

If yes, then the senate is utterly useless, because you don't have to be a senator to do this.
It appears everyone who wants it will access the savegame. Thus, evereyone interested will be able to control the government.
Anyone can start a thread to petition the government to do this and that. No law forbids a citizen to do this, and it's unlikely such a forbid ever happens.
There are already discussion threads about society : culture club, thinkers club... We can imagine other clubs ("bloodthirsty club" or so) coming. This happens before the game even started. And we didn't need senators to do this.

All the functions of the senate can be fulfilled by regular citizens. the very idea that these rights should be restricted to only 5 senators or so is awkwardly antidemocratic.

The only function I agree with is to check the regularity of the polls. Believing Gramphos' constitution, this power should go to the VP, but I grant you it's unsure, as this function has not been decided by a poll now. But I don't think we need a complete senate for this, maybe a "rules commission" of some sort, a kind of constitutional court.


Now, a bit of discussion about senates in the current real world. One thing is that senates / parliaments often have 100-700 people (US senate, European parliament). We have currently barely more than 100 citizens in our Democracy, so the numbers of our citizens fit an actual senate. As the demographic progression is always slower, it's unlikely we have more than 300 people at the end of the game.
A senate is not only maths... If direct democracy is not possible in modern countries, it's because there are too many people, and the highest authorities can't listen to all of them... Takes superhuman time. That's why this too big population needs people to represent it. On 'Poly, everyone can represent himself, without it being unbearable for the prez or his ministers.

As anybody here has direct access to his prez or his ministers, I don't see why we should take them this fundamental right, as a senate would mean for the people an indirect access to the true responsible ones.

It seems your idea, although generous in the principle, will turn antidemocratic when you weight the consequences.

Now, I might be wrong. If so, please explain me how a senate woud be more democratic than the direct democracy we have.


Edit : typo. A mere misspelled "it" became an offensive word

	16-06-2002 04:40									#43
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quote: and ***'s unlikely such a forbid ever happens.

What do t!ts have to do with this?

	16-06-2002 04:42									#44
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I'm to quick for ya.

	16-06-2002 05:11									#45
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BURN IT!!!

POINTLESS WASTE OF TIME AND OVERORGANIZATION THAT RUINS THE GAME!!!!

	16-06-2002 05:17									#46
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 BURN IT!!! POINTLESS WASTE OF TIME AND OVERORGANIZATION THAT RUINS THE GAME!!!!

hi ,

these types of insubordination against the government , by a minister should be brought to the attention of the supreme court , .........

where is that secret police when you need them , ......

have a nice day

	16-06-2002 05:23									#47
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Spiffor,

You have me wrong.

Control the government? Not a chance.

A place, maybe just threads, for everybody else (you know, the one's who aren't ministers) to beef and grouse and praise without cluttering up the forum with a thousand threads.

However, if the people decided to invest the Senate with some specific powers (such as being the final arbitrators of contentious polls) and decide to name specific individuals to the Senate then so be it.

What I wonder is why it seems to be some of the people holding positions already who seem to be coming out swinging against the idea. Would-be tyranni would be very much against the idea of a Senate. Hmmmm.

	16-06-2002 05:40									#48
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No, it's just that it's completely pointless! We're already going to be overorganized with the provincial governor stuff and all that other stuff, and now this?? TOTAL WASTE OF TIME!!!!!!!

	16-06-2002 05:44									#49
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 No, it's just that it's completely pointless! We're already going to be overorganized with the provincial governor stuff and all that other stuff, and now this?? TOTAL WASTE OF TIME!!!!!!!

hi ,

so is getting several jobs at the government at the same time , ......it would be pointless , because there would be to much to do to combine two or more jobs , ...

if its such a total waste of time , then you would agree if 5 people decide they have nothing better to do then to waste their time , .......

have a nice day

	16-06-2002 05:57									#50
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civman, you may be missing the point. This is for the people. Not to horn in on anything that the ministers currently do. Why is there a problem with an idea to make things more interesting for the rest of us?

I have proposed nothing that would lead any Senate to interfere in any way with the Executive.

I would say anything to encourage more participation by all of the people in this game would be much more valuable than governors. Any day of the week.

	16-06-2002 05:57									#51
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I'm not tyrannical, as I don't have personal ambitions (if you look at my campaign thread, you'll see I accepted to be minister of trade because nobody else wanted).
If the "senate" is a thread compiling thread, I'm perfectly fine with it. If it's a place where anyone can discuss without discrimination, I'm very enthusiatic about it, and I will participate there as a normal citizen, as soon as I'm done with my ministerial duties.

However, I have a problem with the senate Panag seems to defend, i.e a place where a small nomenklatura of people, who claim themselves to be representative of the population, enjoy their petty priviledges.
In fact, I have a problem with the very idea of "representatives" in the Democracy of Apolyton. As we're very few, I don't see why people should be represented by anyone else than themselves. I think it would ruin the democratic feeling of the game, and thus ruin the fun.

NYE : sorry if I didn't get your idea. But you have to agree there can be confusion with your idea of an open forum, and Panag's idea of a very restricted cenacle.
I'll support the idea of a thread compiling thread, but I currently don't feel we should make this a rigid rule... Time will tell if we need it or so.
Also, if I understand well, your idea is that the Senate is composed by all people. Then, giving more powers to the senate will mean giving more power to the people. I absolutely agree with that

	16-06-2002 05:59									#52
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Anyone who wants to can create a senate discussion thread, i just see no reason why it should be official. This does not mean I support the idea, it just means that anyone has the right to make one. And what do you mean "so is getting several jobs at the government at the same time , ......it would be pointless , because there would be to much to do to combine two or more jobs , ... " You can only have one cabinet position at a time

	16-06-2002 06:05									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Boy, sounds like a useful addition.

I love your avatar!

Can I use it for things?

Can you send me a larger version?

	16-06-2002 06:06									#54
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Spiffor, I agree. What I don't like is:
1. There being an elitist group of the citizens, no matter how fairly people can join
2. Having something rigid and/or official.

If someone wants to create a thread for general discussion or get a bunch of people to submit one opinion as a whole, they have the right to do that, but I see no reason that a senate would be necessary for that

	16-06-2002 06:06									#55
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House of Commons? House of Lords? Could be interesting...
You all wanna become an MP, rather than a sissy senator, wouldn't you?

Actually, I agree mostly with minister spiffor at this principle.
(Great Britain were not very democratic after all)

Darn, I need a pint now... see ya!

Last edited by ThePlagueRat on 16-06-2002 at 06:12

	16-06-2002 06:08									#56
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If the "senate" is a thread compiling thread, I'm perfectly fine with it. If it's a place where anyone can discuss without discrimination, I'm very enthusiatic about it, and I will participate there as a normal citizen, as soon as I'm done with my ministerial duties

Well. I'm glad we've got that thrashed out. Thank you Spiffor and civman.

I guess we could assume this is the first session of the Senate.

The first session might last, oh, about 500 posts give or take a few.

	16-06-2002 06:09									#57
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat House of Commons? House of Lords? Could be interresting...

hi ,

to big ,

a simple senate , with at least 5 people , no more then 7 , that should do it for all the way up-to at least 500 citizens , .....

have a nice day

	16-06-2002 06:10									#58
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 Spiffor, I agree. What I don't like is: 1. There being an elitist group of the citizens, no matter how fairly people can join 2. Having something rigid and/or official.

I find this very peculiar, coming from a minister. Why do we have you at all? Why don't we all just advise the president directly every turn?

	16-06-2002 06:10									#59
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I actually do think that we should have some sort of a body which will regulate the govt.

Perhaps a "supreme court" is a better title.


Let's say 3-5 people who are elected once per month, who have the power to "administrate" this democracy.

I think it's unreasonable that the executive branch, will be responsible for handling things like elections and polls and so forth.

	16-06-2002 06:12									#60
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither If the "senate" is a thread compiling thread, I'm perfectly fine with it. If it's a place where anyone can discuss without discrimination, I'm very enthusiatic about it, and I will participate there as a normal citizen, as soon as I'm done with my ministerial duties Well. I'm glad we've got that thrashed out. Thank you Spiffor and civman. I guess we could assume this is the first session of the Senate. The first session might last, oh, about 500 posts give or take a few.

hi ,

the senate should make time to listen to all the Q's the people have , check on stuff , and most important of all , let the people speak , .......that is with problem's , remarks , stuff like impeachment , vote's , ...stuff like that , what the senate is doing normally , ...

have a nice day