16-06-2002 00:40									#1
	Is the elephant too powerful? Increase Your PM Length

I think the elephant is a huge imbalance to civ2 combat because you can often romp around with it before the AI has pikemen. When you use the big 4-1-2 guys with an early monarchy and ICS, its just too good.

I was just thinking... wouldn't it be great if you could stack them with Impi... but unfortunately they are in different games.

	16-06-2002 06:10									#2
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It is a good unit to have at that time, but I don't think it's unbalanced. It's no stronger than a legion on the attack, and weaker than a catapult. The 2 moves mean the AI might actually be able to threaten you...

	17-06-2002 04:50									#3
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while the ellies are strong, i prefer knights (mobile legion) . The ai likes to use them and will romp all over newbies if you allow the indians or the mongols access to such creatures

that said, by the time the ai has ellies....i am well on my way with my horde of dragoons/cannons/muskets if not better!

	17-06-2002 14:01									#4
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Apart from the times the AI gives itself Dumbos as a starting tech to make up for its crappy grassland on river 4 whale start.

	17-06-2002 18:32									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Hydey Apart from the times the AI gives itself Dumbos as a starting tech to make up for its crappy grassland on river 4 whale start.

Hydey, that spot doesn't have a single hill square! Please be fair to the AI.

	17-06-2002 19:13									#6
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I remember the civ1 days when the all powerfull chariot was ones choice of attack...... that unit unbalanced the early game against the ai lol

	17-06-2002 19:30									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Hydey Apart from the times the AI gives itself Dumbos as a starting tech to make up for its crappy grassland on river 4 whale start.

And where the AI will build the city anywhere but the middle of the special pattern.

	17-06-2002 20:17									#8
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How long were you playing Civ1 before you "discovered" the sweet spot? That should've been in the Civ2 AI from the start.

	17-06-2002 20:51									#9
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The only thing wrong with the elephant is it is more powerful than chariots and usually you get it sooner. Why bother with chariots when you can have elephants? It will be time to learn what a wheel is when you have smashed all those puny neighbors. Knights are far inferior, since by the time they come in, pikemen are defending cities. Plus 2 defense is worth little. Give me one crusader instead.

	17-06-2002 20:56									#10
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2x2x duels are usually decided by elephants and horses quite early. Unless you're playing on maps large enough that you can't find each other early. Or on islands.

RAH

	18-06-2002 04:17									#11
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i was talking about the ai...i guess it depends on your tech path...i prefer knights to ellies as i got the leos route an not the mono route....

	18-06-2002 04:23									#12
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I never had much luck with elephants.Almost always manage to find a river phalanx or a "Pikeman of Hades" city.

Definitely a kill them before they kill you unit though.A couple out of huts early can be nice

	18-06-2002 05:19									#13
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agreed Smash..... ellies die at a horrible rate against river phalanx or against pikemen....many times without scratching the opposition....

i will take em for free as stated above.....but i will only build them myself under dire circumstances.... not something that happens against the ai

	18-06-2002 10:31									#14
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I like the sound they make.

	18-06-2002 12:45									#15
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It all depends upon your prefered Tech Path - I race for Crooks - so the odd Ellie en route can be more than a little useful.
Also in the Succession Games that have got a new burst of popularity, the 'chosen' tech Path can be 'somewhat confusing' and under these circumstances a vet Ellie can be a fine thing.

SG[1]

	18-06-2002 23:23									#16
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I rarely build elephants... it's a matter of tech path !
But I often have several chariots (a good exploring unit in the early game ) for one reason : we can find chariots in huts, not elephants !

	19-06-2002 05:10									#17
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quote: Originally posted by JCP ) for one reason : we can find chariots in huts, not elephants !

this is incorrect....i have received many ellies from huts....

	19-06-2002 07:55									#18
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Elephants often fall out of huts. It's a sure sign that one of the AI civs has Polytheism even if you don't have this tech.

-----------------

SG(2)

	19-06-2002 08:31									#19
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SG, that suggests some testing and some GL work for our academics. Have they studied huts?

	19-06-2002 12:33									#20
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quote: Elephants often fall out of huts

If SG and War4ever have seen that, it's OK.
Personnaly, I remember huts hiding several kinds of units (mainly archer, horseman and charriot as soon as some civ discovered Wheel, even crusader) but not elephant.
Perhaps it was games were elephant came late and crusader early ?

	19-06-2002 15:16									#21
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elephants can be useful, but in well defended cities they get killed immediately, i prefer building legions in my border towns and then charging blindly into battle, capturing some cities along the way

	19-06-2002 16:34									#22
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quote: Originally posted by JCP Personnaly, I remember huts hiding several kinds of units (mainly archer, horseman and charriot as soon as some civ discovered Wheel, even crusader) but not elephant.

I've found elephants in huts quite often as well!! (an elephant in a hut?? easy to find, if it's not hiding in the fridge... )

	19-06-2002 23:20									#23
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quote: Originally posted by GP I like the sound they make.

Definitely! Nothing more effective in waking me up 2 AM, than an AI elephant attacking something that is mine

Carolus

	20-06-2002 01:44									#24
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quote: If SG and War4ever have seen that, it's OK

But if I say it,its a ball of crap?

I'm taking my ball and I'm going home.

	20-06-2002 01:54									#25
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SG[1] - don't forget your bat, Smash

	20-06-2002 10:01									#26
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You can find elephants tipping your first hut, before founding your capital. I've got them often - but then you can be sure there's another civ on your continent with a lot of start techs.

	20-06-2002 13:57									#27
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If you get elephants from a hut and you don't have Polytheism, you can be sure that another civ has it.

If barbs popping out of the wilderness (called rebellion/rebels in the linked paper below) contain elephants, someone has discovered Gunpowder.

See William Keenan's The Barbarian Paper for the details. I consulted Tables 2 and 5, hope I understood it right.

http://sleague.apolyton.net/Guides/sldt_barbtechs.shtml

Carolus

	24-06-2002 03:18									#28
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Carolus Rex....did you take a leave of absence? haven't seen you for awhile