16-06-2002 08:34									#1
	China's One Child Policy............ Tired of ads?

Is it morally wrong?????

China's radical answer to its population problem was introduced in 1979. Before the restriction to one child per family was brought in, China had tried various other schemes during the 20th century to try and limit its population growth.

Despite its effectiveness, the 'One Child' policy has attracted huge amounts of criticism from different quarters. Apart from groups who see it as a violation of the rights of the unborn child, there are also those who see it as a violation of the rights of the prospective parents.

In 1999 controversy erupted when an eight month pregnant Chinese national seeking sanctuary in Australia from her Government's 'One Child' policy was deported back to China. The consequences for the woman, on her return to China included the aborting of the pregnancy against her wishes.

Supporters point out that unsustainable population growth is perhaps the most serious environmental concern facing the planet and applaud China for being one country that has been prepared to tackle the problem seriously. They see it as hypocritical to sit in moral judgement of the Chinese, whilst bemoaning the ill effects of over-population in other countries.

Thoughts????

	16-06-2002 15:46									#2
	Re: China's One Child Policy............ Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by schmoowithazing Thoughts????

Just curious, have you some links about this topic? Iīve heard about it, but I donīt know much about this issue. I could of course search too, but perhaps you know some good sources anyway.

To your question about moral - it is a dilemma between individual concerns (having as much children as you want) and whatīs good for the society (less children). Iīm not sure what to answer, instinctively Iīd say, the individual wishes for children a more important, then again I think on a certain scale overpopulation is too serious to let it simply go on...

It would be interesting to hear how exactly this "one child" policy is executed, what the public opinion in China about is etc...

	16-06-2002 16:26									#3
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Obviously there can't be a right to have as many children as you want of the ressources are limited. That seems completely clear cut to me, not even a dilemma. So I agree with China's policy in principle. The Chinese leadership is showing good leadership in thinking so long term.

Of course I do not agree with every act committed while enforcing the policy.

	16-06-2002 18:00									#4
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There is a great big problem with overpopulation. Either you go through the pains now for a better future, or have the next generation going to hell in the proverbial handbasket.

It would be a better idea to let education and affluence do their duty, but there simply isn't time for they to kick in.

	16-06-2002 18:25									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Thue Obviously there can't be a right to have as many children as you want of the ressources are limited. That seems completely clear cut to me, not even a dilemma. So I agree with China's policy in principle. The Chinese leadership is showing good leadership in thinking so long term. Of course I do not agree with every act committed while enforcing the policy.

I agree with that. While I don't necassarily agree with their meathods, something must be done, and I don't blame them for their actions.

	16-06-2002 18:50									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Thue Obviously there can't be a right to have as many children as you want of the ressources are limited. That seems completely clear cut to me, not even a dilemma.

Well, I didnīt use the word "right" But however, I think the question how deep the state can go into private affairs is not so easy to answer.

[trolling on]Hey if its only about limited resources, why not simply kill some million Chinese? It canīt be wrong when the resources are limited![trolling off]

Not that I will discuss on that level, but is the relation between state/society and individuum only a matter of resources?

	16-06-2002 18:59									#7
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Personally, I think it is society's duty to decide who can have children or not. There are many people having children who shouldn't be. The other problem is that the people in the government now shouldn't be allowed to make those decisions.

Priorities:
1. Get the greedy, immoral Democratic and Republican parties out of the government.

2. Improve society at the root (education) by raising the next generation right.

I find it hilarious that in order to drive a car, you need to prove you are responsible enough. But in order to choose a leader, you don't need to prove anything. Voting and having children should have some sort of a responsibility test. Unfortunately, that won't happen because there are too many obstacles in the form of stupid people.

	16-06-2002 20:05									#8
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I don't know if you will be sorry or happy to hear this, but China accomplishes most of its population control with tax incentives. The forced abortion and similar horror stories are not the norm.

I think the law is pretty universally supported. If you live here it is pretty clear on a daily basis that there are simply TOO MANY PEOPLE . From that single fact springs most of China's other major problems: air and water pollution, oversupply of labor, shrinking water supplies & desertification, traffic, deforestation, insufficient gov't safety net, etc, etc.

In fact, many wish it was more strictly enforced, as there are plenty of loopholes (ethnic minorities, farmers whose firstborn is a girl, marriages between two only children, etc), and lots of countryfolk simply fail to register their "extra" offspring. The latter is really a cruel and selfish practice, as these phantom children later face enormous problems finding jobs and housing since they do not officially exist - they don't have any official ID, etc.

	16-06-2002 20:07									#9
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Sava: I agree, but you do realize that you are advocating a sort of neo-aristocracy that will never sell in, say, the USA, don't you?

	16-06-2002 20:15									#10
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It's a pity that things are what they are in China, but so far, no one else has offered another viable solution. Their current system has a very real potential to help the population problem, desipte some of the things that may occur. It's just a good thing that most other countries don't face a problem on the scale of China or India.

	16-06-2002 20:17									#11
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Sava: I agree, but you do realize that you are advocating a sort of neo-aristocracy that will never sell in, say, the USA, don't you?

Yes I am. The difference is that this aristocracy will be inclusive rather than exclusive. If you want to be a member, you can be. There are prerequisites. Don't say never either. With the right marketing and advertisement campaign, you can sell a lighter to a man soaked in gasoline who lives in the middle of a dynamite factory.

	16-06-2002 20:32									#12
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quote: Not that I will discuss on that level, but is the relation between state/society and individuum only a matter of resources?

Depends on how scarce those resources are, and how their relative scarcity affects the quality of life for the whole. Difficulty in finding a parking place at the mall is probably not sufficient grounds for the gov't to get involved. However, problems on the scale China faces seem to me to a pretty clear-cut case for involvement.

	16-06-2002 22:06									#13
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I think the One Child Policy is morally repugnant, and certainly an extreme limitation on individual rights.

Of course, I'm not surprised it is universally supported in China, seeing as how the Chinese aren't generally known for having or even really wanting individual rights as opposed to societal control, if I may generalize.

	16-06-2002 22:35									#14
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I agree with DF. "Morally repugnant" is a good description. Have you all lost your way? Do the ends justifying the means nowadays?

	16-06-2002 23:01									#15
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Morally repugnant?!

So letting everyone reproduce like rabbits and then undergo violently nasty famines on the scale of North Korea is therefore morally correct?

More importantly, can anyone offer an alternative to the One Child Policy that would also control the Chinese population?

quote: Of course, I'm not surprised it is universally supported in China, seeing as how the Chinese aren't generally known for having or even really wanting individual rights as opposed to societal control, if I may generalize.

The same old debate over Liberty vs Stability. You can only pick one. We, living in the West, picked Liberty. Someone else, in a different society, picks Stability. Simple as that.

	16-06-2002 23:03									#16
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Dan and Dave, if the US had 3 or 4 billion people (roughly comparable to the population density of China) you would definitely think differently. Your comments just go to show how ignorant you are of what life is like in China.

	16-06-2002 23:05									#17
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I applaud it.

In an ideal world, this wouldn't be necssary.

But in an ideal world, hundreds of millions wouldn't die from the results of overpopulation. If the rest of Asia had carried out a similar policy, maybe they'd be more than third world nations.

	16-06-2002 23:05									#18
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They aren't forced to only have one child. Abortions are not, as mindseye has pointed out, usually enforced, sterilisation is not mandatory etc.
The choice is still there:
Have only one child, get a good job, economic benefits, free education and cheap healthcare.
Or have more than one child, and none of the above benefits.

	16-06-2002 23:08									#19
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The most morally repugnant scenario is uncontrolled population growth resulting in mass famine and civil strife.

	16-06-2002 23:11									#20
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Exactly, ranskaldan. The only people who claim population control is immoral are people who hide their own selfish agendas behind the cause of "morality". These people are usually the conservatives. And not surprisingly, these people are usually Pro-Life, Anti-Assisted Suicide, and Pro-Death-Penalty. More proof these ignorant people are hypocritical and selfish.

	16-06-2002 23:13									#21
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"So letting everyone reproduce like rabbits and then undergo violently nasty famines on the scale of North Korea is therefore morally correct?"

Think again, strawman.

"More importantly, can anyone offer an alternative to the One Child Policy that would also control the Chinese population?"

Economic development and urbanization has proven to be the most effective population control mechanism.

" The same old debate over Liberty vs Stability. You can only pick one. We, living in the West, picked Liberty. Someone else, in a different society, picks Stability. Simple as that."

This is tripe often spewed by Asian dictators as an excuse to oppress their people. We have both stability and liberty and the people of China have a right to demand likewise.

"Dan and Dave, if the US had 3 or 4 billion people (roughly comparable to the population density of China) you would definitely think differently. Your comments just go to show how ignorant you are of what life is like in China."

Sava, this is a ridiculous argument. You're in a world of guaranteed rights. If somebody said you could only have one child, how would you take it? I daresay I would be picking up my pitchfork and joining the revolution.

And another thing. Redo your math.

	16-06-2002 23:15									#22
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But what if you had to choose between giving your kid a good life or having 5 in the slums?

	16-06-2002 23:17									#23
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My argument rests on this choice. Most urbanites will choose to give their kid a good life.

	16-06-2002 23:20									#24
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The choice is available

	16-06-2002 23:21									#25
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Dan, go visit China, live there for a year, and tell me you still feel the same way. China is overpopulated.

Overpopulation - When the number of living organisms outgrows the supply of food.

Those number of people over the limit starve. Is it worse to tell people to only have one child or to have millions dying of starvation a year?

If you are a truly moral person (which I doubt you are) you would agree that asking people to make the sacrifice of a not having a large family is a small price to pay to prevent the suffering of millions.

	16-06-2002 23:23									#26
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" Those number of people over the limit starve. Is it worse to tell people to only have one child or to have millions dying of starvation a year?"

False choice. See the stawman alert above.

" If you are a truly moral person (which I doubt you are) you would agree that asking people to make the sacrifice of a not having a large family is a small price to pay to prevent the suffering of millions."

Asking?

	16-06-2002 23:25									#27
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After a certain point, when millions start to starve, asking becomes forcing. And forcing people to have one child is not as terrible as having millions die.

But apparantly you don't think so. It boils down to this. You are a selfish, immoral conservative.

	16-06-2002 23:27									#28
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Am I on DanS' ignore list?

They are not forced, they are merely strongly encouraged.

	16-06-2002 23:30									#29
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"You are a selfish, immoral conservative."



"After a certain point, when millions start to starve, asking becomes forcing. And forcing people to have one child is not as terrible as having millions die."

Again, false choice. An inherently morally repugnant one child policy such as China has had for a quite a while is no substitute for development.

	16-06-2002 23:30									#30
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I wouldn't be surprised if you are IW. Usually when people know they are wrong, but too selfish and arrogant to admit it, they either ignore you, or continue to troll.