17-06-2002 18:53									#1
	Invasions: stage or all at once? Full PM-box? Change here!

Started a game this weekend with only 4 other civs. Strangely it is more challending than with 7 other civs as they are stronger. {couldn't find how to get 16 civs, so tried 5}.

Environment-- 3 civs left, 2 on one continent and I am on another. We are about equal in score and power and close in techs. { Ger == (Aztex + Persia) }. Southern civ is the stronger of the two. They have a MPP.

Picked out 4 good landing zones, East and West for each civ, not too close to capital.
I will have 12 transports and besides 1 settler in each strike force, will have calvary and some infantry and tanks.

Now which would work best:
Option 1-- time so all 4 hit the beaches at the same time.

Option 2--
Turn DDay: NE, SW zones
DDay +1 : NW zone
DDay +2 : SE zone

Option 3--
DDay : NW zone
DDay +1 : SW zone
DDay +2 : NE zone
DDay +3 : SE zone

Goal is simply to have one successful beachhead, where I can plant a city on a hill and rush an airport for reinforcements. Even with transports having a move of 6, it takes 2-4 turns to get across the seas.

	17-06-2002 19:17									#2
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a screenshot would really help, but i suggest building a strong navy (if you have the techs), and attacking one of them (clsoe to a bottleneck or mountain range you can use).

after you attack, the other guy will declare war on you. with a decent navy you can thwart his assaults on your mainland, as well as bombard a bit.

if you want to play like a cheater, sign a MPP with one of them, then declare war on the other (in the diplomacy window), and then place a unit in the enemies territory.

when they attack it, the other AI will declare war on them.

it's quite stupid, really.

	17-06-2002 19:34									#3
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX a screenshot would really help, but i suggest building a strong navy (if you have the techs), and attacking one of them (clsoe to a bottleneck or mountain range you can use).

1. Don't know how to make screen shots. W98: how do I do that? Can you post civ files on forum, I do have some saved files?
2. No bottleneck is available, very wide continent.
3. Building moderate navy
Pre invasion build planned
transports: 6/12 built
BS: 2/8 built
Dest: 1/8 built
Carrier: 1/4 built

Post invasion build planned
transports: 2
BS: 4
Des: 8
4. Game is too feeling too close to build any more of a navy than that.

quote: after you attack, the other guy will declare war on you. with a decent navy you can thwart his assaults on your mainland, as well as bombard a bit.

Don't need to thwart assaults as have good RR and homeland defense. Think they have very small navy and few pieces they can bring to assault will be easily rebuffed.

quote: if you want to play like a cheater, sign a MPP with one of them, then declare war on the other (in the diplomacy window), and then place a unit in the enemies territory. when they attack it, the other AI will declare war on them.it's quite stupid, really.

Interesting, have not used MPP to generate AI fraticide. Will keep this idea as a possible strategy when way behind, but think this will be more interesting without that as we are fairly even matched now. {Except for their weak navy. It was strong but I delayed navy build order until DS available.}

	18-06-2002 04:50									#4
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hi ,

would it be possible to post a SAV(e) , ...thanks

have a nice day

	18-06-2002 07:19									#5
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planetfall,
Where are your artillery allocations?? And your Armies?

You have NOT noted that they have RoP agreements. If they don't make them when you attack, you have it made.

Understand that you may be subjected to the weight of almost every unit the defender has. 3-6 Immortals could easily wipe out one of your tanks. I suspect that unless you use armies, your force levels may be seriously understrength. I would recommend that you leave 1-2 transports at the invasion sites in case you want to withdraw your forces.

Of course, not knowing what the force levels are leaves things a bit hazy. My pessimism in the previous paragraph is based on a bad experience I had a few months ago

	18-06-2002 07:29									#6
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Simultaneous invasions or separated by 1-2 turns?? Not tremendously important as there are advantages both ways.

Separated and you get to measure defensive response and adjust plans. OTOH, you also have to contend with potential counterstrikes on your invasion fleets by bombers and naval. Add a submarine or two to each fleet to detect their subs. Remember that stock probability to intercept an air strike is only 50%.

	18-06-2002 08:59									#7
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I had some success with the following invasion plan.

I was playing the Persians, and the Germans declared war on me, at a time when their military was superior. I was on one continent, they occupied another.

I concentrated on establising a beach-head in one position only. If their empire is connected by rail, they will be able to get troops anywhere in one turn, so it is best to concentrate your forces if they lack nukes. (For me, it was easy, because I had most of the uranium - I had more Uranium than any other resource, even Iron and Horses.)

I found the best way of doing it was to land in one spot with my strongest defensive units. Keep the transports handy, and expect heavy losses early. But using defensive units first will maximise their survival chances. I landed 40 units, then after taking losses, I evacuated 20 for healing. However, the Germans also took losses trying to destroy my mech inf. I retreated the remaining units into the transports and healed them. Then I brought them back with reinforcements. The second time, the attack was weaker, and some mech inf survived. Eventually I was able to land the tanks and start an offensive.

I think the best way to invade is to keep hitting at one point. Invade with defensive units first, preferably on terrain with strong defensive values such as a hill or mountain. Keep reinforcements coming, by having a constant stream of transports go back and forth. Reinforcements go one way, damaged units and any leaders go the other. Have enough transports to permit every reinforcement to be loaded and shipped that same turn. Guard the transports with battleships, destroyers and submarines. (In my mod, destroyers can see subs.) Maintain naval superiority in this zone, and destroy any enemy ship that approaches.

Shipping a few workers over to build a fortress quickly will improve the survival chances of your forces. You can also get workers by razing an enemy city.

Eventually, the enemy will weaken themselves by beating up on your defensive units, and you can establish your initial beachhead with fortified defensive units inside a fortress. Once this is done, you can ship over your offensive units and settlers. Building an airport is not always the most efficient technique. Go for a coastal city with a harbour instead. You can unload an unlimited number of troops in a harbour, but there is a limit on airlifting. Once you have a coastal city with a harbour, your invasion will proceed quickly.

	18-06-2002 09:43									#8
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If you want to establish a beachhead, a 99% success rate method is to use a army with 3/4 defenders in it (4 w/ pentagon). Firstly usually the AI will not attack a full strength army if it can avoid it and secondly they are harder than hell to take out and provide you with that landing spot to move your tanks through. I try to always take a army with my attacks.

	18-06-2002 10:26									#9
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Still reading... but more U than Iron?

	18-06-2002 10:37									#10
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Running notes:

In answer to the original question, late stage invasions are immeasurably benefited by Battlefield Medicine.

star mouse: Actually, there is no limit on incoming airlifts for Airports. They are GREAT to have for an invasion. I like Harbors tremendously too, for ship healing and luxury resources. BTW all, please note, these two improvements, along with Barracks, are military... mobilize!

YuMMz: Armies. More Armies. A couple more. Thanks for bringing this up... 3-4X Infantry Armies are invaluable in mounting this kind of invasion. Catt has been leading a discussion on the base strategy for invasion, and I think landing on a Mountain, with not only sufficient force but also 1-2 good defensive Armies, puts the whole question to rest. BTW, my favorite mixed unit Armies are just as good... 1 Sword-level unit, 1 Musket, 1 Rifle, and 1 Infantry. Nobody gonna mess with the bad boy king o' da mountain.

	18-06-2002 12:13									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Actually, there is no limit on incoming airlifts for Airports. They are GREAT to have for an invasion.

Good point. However, if there are enemy fighters nearby, they could pose a problem for airlifts. Although it's slower, a naval assualt is more reliable if you can control the invasion corridor.

With my invasion, (and my mod) I could *just* get a transport from a port city on my continent to a captured port city on the German continent. I couldn't unload the transport directly because it had no movement left, but I could if I clicked on each unit. I could attack the Germans with a Modern Armor on their continent on the same turn I built it on mine. Sweeeet....

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Nobody gonna mess with the bad boy king o' da mountain.

Yes ... play the "King Of The Mountain" invasion strategy - it works a treat.

	18-06-2002 16:23									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus but more U than Iron?

Yes, indeed ... However, I miscounted my uraniums. I had six, not five, of the world total of eight. The Russians had the other two.

I was going to attach an image, but Apolyton seems to think that 600 x 0 is the maximum size of images right now. But to summarise:

3 horses
3 iron
no saltpeter
1 coal
3 oil
3 rubber
3 aloominum
6 uranium

I finished the game without any saltpeter, and couldn't trade for any, but that's OK, you don't need it in the modern era. But 6 of 8 uranium! That's almost as many uranium as I had *cows* ...

I mostly got these uraniums in my forests when they ran out in other locations. Unlike the AI's, I didn't chop down my forests to any great degree. This strategy can give you a chance of getting new Uranium. Since I discovered Fission, I noticed Uranium migrating four times. Twice, a new one appeared in my territory from elsewhere, one moved from one square to a distant one in my territory, and one moved from the Germans to the Babylonians.

	18-06-2002 18:21									#13
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Screenshot Making...

While the shot you would like to make a picture of is on screen, press the "Print Screen" key directly to the right of F12 (on a US keyboard).

This is just like the "Copy" function in your favorite word processor.

Next, open your favorite graphics editor and "Paste" your image into the program. Edit as you see fit. Post on Apolyton to make all of us love you.

	18-06-2002 18:26									#14
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load test

Attachment: ddayminusone.zip
This has been downloaded 19 time(s).

	18-06-2002 19:05									#15
	First load of sav file Remove this text

dunk999-- I can't believe I forgot about PrintScreen. Haven't used that recently but 5 years ago used a lot. Drink coffee, repeat, repeat...


starmouse--airlift limitation is not receiving airport but number of airports lifting units. It seems each airport can only support one lift per turn.

I have forgotten how *** long it takes in modern era to move pieces. I sure wish firaxis would add tools to speed up my game play:


1. Current city production by type, i.e., libraries, warriors, etc. {Shift}{F1} or {F12} seem to be open for display screen.
2. Keep up stack list. It is so annoying to move a carrier in a stack and then have to scroll and scroll to find the plane you want for recon missions. Often I want to activate more than 3 planes. If the list was up I could select all, or even better would be a command to activate all aircraft on carrier.
3. Toggle on grid coordinates. I hate getting lost in the micromanagement and losing track of my target location.
4. Some way to find out how many of the 450 turns you have played.
5. Ability to save key data every 25 turns.


In previous post attached save file of DDay -1. I am thinking of trying all landing zones at one time and also sequencing landings to see how the game plays differently.

Surprises now we have approached DDay:
1. not all continent is RR'ed
2. ironclad has been strongest naval opposition.
3. no sign of aircraft
4. no sign of cruise missiles
5. Aztec strongest foot is rifleman
6. no sign of tanks

Planned Landing Zones:

LZ-1, NW, 2 N of Tiacopon
LZ-2, NE, 3 N of Atacapotzolon
LZ-3, SW, 3 SW of tarsus
LZ-4, E, 2 N of Chaico

LZ-5, SE, 2 S of Bactus

LZ's 1-4 come with settlers for planting. I already have BM and cash for rushing.
Build order:
1. city, rush airport
2. walls
3. barracks
4. What I will still be standing at this point. Again strategy is to have at least one of LZ succeed in establishing a beachhead. After that it is expand... Transports will be returning to home continent after dropping off landing groups. Each LZ is "do or die". DDay not Dunkirk.

LZ-5 is just a couple of armies thrown in for disruption value. Do not plan to settle. Mission is 1) remove some strategic resources, 2) disrupt counter attacks, and remove some enemy units. Does not matter if lose this entire force. I have more in production.

Winning this game seems easy, but I want to learn how to develop strategies that will work at even higher levels. Hopefully this is my last game at warlord.

Suggestions?

Comments?

	18-06-2002 19:48									#16
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Cut off all roads to the capitol.

	18-06-2002 20:03									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Cut off all roads to the capitol.

Duh.

Actually I have not seen as much positive effect from that strategy as I would have hoped. I seem to get better results by taking the capital. The capital relocation seems to disrupt empire more than just removing all roads to capital as it cuts into production capability. Besides it is more fun than the boring bombardment of at least the 8 capital border tiles each and every turn. I'm guessing the AI has to change to a new tactic each time the capital moves.

	18-06-2002 22:21									#18
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Sorry, but I think it's cool. In the first mini-tourney game, I cut off all of China's access to strategic and luxury resources, and cut off the capital, and then, after watching their forces devolve to Longbow attacking my Tanks, I took'em down in a couple of moves.

	18-06-2002 22:33									#19
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Yeh, that is cool. Since 1.21 I don't see other civ's cities go into disorder when cut off luxuries. Sometimes I still cut off the capital, other times they only have 1 or 2 instances of my primary targets:
rubber
Ur/Alum
Then I can take 3-4 tiles instead of 8. Even if add 2 for oil, it still might be easier than restricting roads to capital. If leave capital still have the problem of it tending to be in the center of the empire. I prefer to both remove stragetic resources and force center of empire to relocate hoping for a good empire production decline. Unfortunately we don't a table where we can compare the production of our civ with other civs. If firaxis had such a tool we should be able to figure out what really works best.

Of course, there is the other answer. I am playing at lower difficulty level and so my "sloppy approach" to warfare might not be possible on higher settings. I just enjoy finding a civ with only 1 rubber and 1 Ur/Al.
I take out 2 tiles and use rest of bombardment for city capture. Either way it is a fun to watch de-evolution.

	18-06-2002 22:38									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

Plant spies so you get their military strengths from your F3. You can do this on the turn you declare if you fear their being caught and starting the war prematurely.

It is at least entertaining to see how their strengths fluctuate with production and combat losses.

	18-06-2002 22:43									#21
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hi ,

tip ; the maximum size of a pic is 600X600 pixcels , ...

just reduce the size for the screenshot's , ..

have a nice day

	18-06-2002 22:53									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Plant spies so you get their military strengths from your F3. You can do this on the turn you declare if you fear their being caught and starting the war prematurely. It is at least entertaining to see how their strengths fluctuate with production and combat losses.

Wow, great idea. Know of any tactics to get spies in Persia? They were so trigger happy this last game, ugh. After 4th time, spread over 3 turns, war. Phooney too soon.

	18-06-2002 23:09									#23
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall Wow, great idea. Know of any tactics to get spies in Persia? They were so trigger happy this last game, ugh. After 4th time, spread over 3 turns, war. Phooney too soon.

Tips:
Be on good terms with them.

I have had good experience with being in Communist government. Works better with higher "professionalism" of your spys.

"Cheat".
Save before planting spy. Plant spy. If unsuccessful, reload and try again, but do it in a different 'randomizer event' order (e.g., combat, other diplomacy action).

	19-06-2002 18:45									#24
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Ok, it worked, but barely. Stack of 20 units was attacked by 3 stacks of about 20 units. Almost all units went yellow. Lost some naturally. Hint: calvary do not work for first counter attack wave.

artillery question
How do artillery work on defense?

If have stack of 10 units and 2 artillery, what happens when another stack attacks?

First time-- naturally artillery gets 2 shots.

What happens on second unit attack? Do artillery get another shot, or have they already used up their free shot?

	19-06-2002 19:16									#25
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall ... What happens on second unit attack? Do artillery get another shot, or have they already used up their free shot?

Artillery gets only 1 defensive shot per turn. My experience is that only 1 unit will defensively fire at an attacking unit. 2nd artillery would defend against the 2nd attacker.

Masses of artillery is preferred so that you can disable enemy units during YOUR turn.

	19-06-2002 19:33									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Masses of artillery is preferred so that you can disable enemy units during YOUR turn.

Ok, that is what I thought. I like panzers for disabling as I get 3 shots/turn instead of just one.

	19-06-2002 19:34									#27
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hi ,

use artillery to soften the enemy up , the go for it .
when in a later era , mech infantry and modern armour can take shots at every passing unit , no matter how many , ...

have a nice day

	19-06-2002 20:07									#28
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , use artillery to soften the enemy up , the go for it . when in a later era , mech infantry and modern armour can take shots at every passing unit , no matter how many , ... have a nice day

Real question is assuming you have spies or have reasonable guess Persia has 50-70 infantry/riflemen, how many and which units do you need for a sea landing and settling in hostile territory.

I tried
panzers 8
calvary 8
settler 1
mech 7

reinforced 2 turns later with
mech 5
panzer 3

And I barely held. If replayed, I would forget the cavs and put in 6 mech and 2 panzers.

	19-06-2002 20:30									#29
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall Real question is assuming you have spies or have reasonable guess Persia has 50-70 infantry/riflemen, how many and which units do you need for a sea landing and settling in hostile territory. I tried panzers 8 calvary 8 settler 1 mech 7 reinforced 2 turns later with mech 5 panzer 3 And I barely held. If replayed, I would forget the cavs and put in 6 mech and 2 panzers.

hi ,

first of all , before you start , make sure you can handle it , get more units to start with , more transports , and those old units are great , just disband them in a city , to build a harbor or courthouse faster , ...

infantry will do a nice job to , just to slow them down , ...

try to get a carrier with some airpower , its great for support , but you dont need it always

get some settlers and workers to , to improve the terrain , or to start a new city , ..

artillery to destroy roads , this way , there units are forced to slow down ,

use workers to plant forest , this slows them down also , its good for defense , and good for global warming , to cut down on it that is , ...

have a nice day

	19-06-2002 20:46									#30
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , first of all , before you start , make sure you can handle it , get more units to start with , more transports , and those old units are great , just disband them in a city , to build a harbor or courthouse faster , ...

In this game AI score was growing faster than mine and power score was stagnant. Did not feel could wait for units. I had to do something to slow their RR and factory/powerplant build orders. Also this other civ was about 4 turns by water away from my continent. Guess your point is I should have used some of 15k cash to hurry and get another 8 units there.

quote: infantry will do a nice job to , just to slow them down , ...

Mechs work better on defense. Upgraded inf just before launching sea expedition

quote: try to get a carrier with some airpower , its great for support , but you dont need it always

Carrier was there but mission was removing roads/RR in tiles next to landing force. That just barely worked. Probably should have brought in 2 carriers

quote: get some settlers and workers to , to improve the terrain , or to start a new city , ..

Brought in one settler per landing group. could not use workers yet as still hostile territory.

quote: artillery to destroy roads , this way , there units are forced to slow down ,

Couldn't use artillery yet, they were in the second landing group. I needed units with defense values.

quote: use workers to plant forest , this slows them down also , its good for defense , and good for global warming , to cut down on it that is , ... have a nice day

Don't like forest idea. When I used it their defense values improved!!! Too often the fact that they are defending from a forest has been enough to cause me to lose units. In hostile territory if I improve, it is mine or irrigate until I have another buffer city then may go back and forest. I don't see any sense in giving the AI a defensive bonus.