18-06-2002 06:23									#1
	Palace Jump Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Due to the obviously poor starting position, I propose that we should be prepared to perform a palace jump in the near future. For those who don't know, a palace jump is where one disbands there own capital in order to have moved freely to a better a location, and is an extremely useful tactic when your palace position is sub-optimal (and in this case, horrendous). If this initiative is undertaken, there are a few obvious preparations. The first is that the capital will not produce improvements. As this city will be disbanded anyway, they would be a waste of time. Second, as a consequence, the capital will become a unit factory, especially pumping out both settlers and workers. Third, the workers should not bother improving more than two squares within the capital's radius, as it will not be allowed to grow beyond that size without immediately producing a settler. It will also be optimized for production and not growth. Fourth, the workers will not build a road through the jungle, as there will be nothing left to connect to once the city is abandoned.

This thread is for the discussion of this proposal, including dissenting opiniong. It will result in a couple polls which I will post tomorrow and will run simulataneously, despite their depending on each other, as it seems quite possible that the next turnchat will be in a few days. The planned polls are (in order of dependence):
1. Do you approve the idea of palace-jumping?
Yes
No
Abstain
Other (please explain)

2. If palace jumping is approved, do you agree with my proposals for subsequent actions?
Yes
No
Abstain
Other (please explain)

Any objections to the wording or options of these polls should ne voiced ASAP, preferably before they are posted.

All comments welcome.

Incidentally, I strongly advocate this course of action, if this was not obvious.

	18-06-2002 06:29									#2
	Suffering from ads?

I think eventually we'll have to do a Palace Jump, that is clear. The real question is when.

	18-06-2002 06:36									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'm not sure if I like the idea of disbanding the city of Apolyton so soon. Is the expected corruption so bad that there won't be time to just rebuild the palace, rather than disbanding Apolyton? Or am I just so unexperienced in Civ3 that this is just useless drivle and all are free to laugh?

	18-06-2002 06:38									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Well, being that the entire side of this island/continent is jungle, the entire side of the island will be fairless useless until most of the jungle can be cleared... and with things being what they are (i.e. we still don't know where the jungle ends), the best place to put our capital will have to be far, far away from where we've started. We will certainly keep Apolyton around for some time, but eventually it may not be worth our time to keep around (then again, it could be, but we'll have to see).

	18-06-2002 06:44									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

hmmm...
Was there an optimal spot for capital at all?
(maybe somewhere among the banana-trees, if they were cut down! )

Ok, Punkbass' jumpy proposal sounds good!
In case of this jungle-jumping affair, there should be built another city at this lucrative coastline... I still need my whalebeef!

	18-06-2002 06:48									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Trip (i.e. we still don't know where the jungle ends)

It could be big... What planet-age did you choose on startup?
(inflicts size of deserts, jungles, mountain ranges, etc.)

	18-06-2002 06:52									#7
	Remove this text

This is a question we probably wont be able to answer until at least the AD.

	18-06-2002 06:52									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat It could be big... What planet-age did you choose on startup? (inflicts size of deserts, jungles, mountain ranges, etc.)

Huge map, random landmass, temperate, normal.

	18-06-2002 07:12									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by SwitchMoO I'm not sure if I like the idea of disbanding the city of Apolyton so soon. Is the expected corruption so bad that there won't be time to just rebuild the palace, rather than disbanding Apolyton

Well, there's always time, technically, but I would expect to be building that new palace at the rate of one or two spt, which would be a looooooooooooong time.

	18-06-2002 07:15									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Pythagoras This is a question we probably wont be able to answer until at least the AD.

I am not sure why you believe this, but in any case, it needs to be decided now, as many of the ramifications (if ramifications can occur retroactively) need to be decided upon now.

	18-06-2002 08:45									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

if there is a more suitable place up north for our new empire then I say Jump, but if its just another peninsula neighbored by Jungle I say start whacking away at the trees.

	18-06-2002 08:55									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Damn the man! Save the Empire!

Don't ditch the capital.

	18-06-2002 09:11									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

it's not much of a capital if its so far away from the empire.

	18-06-2002 09:12									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

as of what we see now, there is no reason to even consider a palace jump, until we see a half decent spot.

a whale and a fish in the middle of a jungle clearing may be the ebst we see for a while.

i'm not in favor of palace jumping, becaus ei cnsider it an exploit. oh well.

	18-06-2002 10:41									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I too consider it an exploit. Besides, the site of our capital is pretty solid : whales, fish, two shield producing grasslands, forests... Maybe the best spot we'll have in a good while. If the city was to be disbanded, I'd like to see it rebuilt shortly thereafter (I know, I must tell this to Timeline).

	18-06-2002 11:59									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Disband to Settler. Capitol jumps to 2nd city (hopefully in greener pastures). Rebuild immediately on this site.

Call the new (old) city Tripanus. It will eventually be a great metropolis. In the mean time it can feed settlers into the jungle.

I think the great expanse of banana land justifies a small exploit in this case.

	18-06-2002 12:25									#17
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I agree with Spiffor and notyoueither, we should rebuild Apolyton once it's been abandoned.

Although, I do think it should still be named Apolyton.

Besides, we wouldn't want someone else founding a citry on the same spot as the city where we all were born, would we?

Our cultural border should cover the grassland south of the Notylopa Jungle, we don't want intruders on our Aploytonian continent!

	18-06-2002 13:09									#18
	Got spare money?

1 - yes.
2 - yes.

Good job so far, punkbass . No complaint from the opposition. But do me a favor and plonk a city (in cooperation with Timeline) with that damn second settler near the capital. Every turn it moves is one too many, it loses its advantage quick.

	18-06-2002 14:06									#19
	Support Apolyton

I agree.

The jungle is too big and it will take millenia to road it.

I see two possibilities(both of them suck) -
1) We're on an island filled with jungle.
2) The jungle is huge, but it ends.

In both cases, we cant leave a capitol at the current spot.

	18-06-2002 16:53									#20
	Support Apolyton

Leave apolyton, it has a pretty good location, i see no reason to ever disband it. However, once we have a significant number of cities (5 or 6 maybe) we should move, if we're out of the jungle.

Oh, and please say banana in the polls, not abstain

	18-06-2002 17:21									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I agree with Civman on this, we don't even know if there is a place to move as yet. Keep the capital for now, explore more, and build a few more cities, if we need to move the capital due to corruption then, we can then. Last thing we want to do is disband Apolyton, only to be wondering in the jungle for 10-20 turns looking for the ideal spot.

	18-06-2002 17:44									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Of course we should wait before abandoning Apolyton. Even if its location is poor for a capital, it still produces commerce and so gold or science. I think we should keep on exploring until finding a new location for our empire, then build some cities. At this point Apolyton could be abandoned by producing a settler so to make the palace jump and New Apolyton could be built at the same location, which is still valuable for a city.

	18-06-2002 17:50									#23
	Put an end to popups!

1. Abstain
2. Yes

I'm generally against palace jumping, but if we do it, the proposal seems fine.

	18-06-2002 18:58									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 I am not sure why you believe this, but in any case, it needs to be decided now, as many of the ramifications (if ramifications can occur retroactively) need to be decided upon now.

Sorry I didnt read the questions. Yes we should palace jump, but as to where - that depends on what our nation looks like which might not be really known until we're out of BC years.

	18-06-2002 19:20									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Nym Of course we should wait before abandoning Apolyton. Even if its location is poor for a capital, it still produces commerce and so gold or science. I think we should keep on exploring until finding a new location for our empire, then build some cities. At this point Apolyton could be abandoned by producing a settler so to make the palace jump and New Apolyton could be built at the same location, which is still valuable for a city.

I think that's just perfect! If it will work out then.... and if it's the enlightened people's true will? we'll see...
Yeah, our dear Ministeries: Prepare the votation now!

	18-06-2002 20:35									#26
	Support Apolyton

I just thought about something :
When we'll abandon Apolyton, which city will become the capital ? (sorry, I never lost my capital). Will it be the one next to Apolyton, probably in the jungle, or the most populated one ?
Should we be prepared to abandon a bunch of cities to get the palace where it should be ? It seems to be very risky.

	18-06-2002 20:39									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I believe that when you abandon your capital it automatically jumps to whatever city you founded 2nd.

If that is the case then we will have to be very careful where we send our current settler to found a city, otherwise we'll be no better off than we are now.

	18-06-2002 20:45									#28
	Get a bigger avatar today!

No, it's most likely the most populated one. This simple rule can be messed up only with a wonder. I once had prepared a size-7 city for the new capital, but it jumped to a size-4 city with the Great Library.

SirPleb of CivFanatics posted a few links recently, you can find them here.

	18-06-2002 20:48									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Thanks for that info.

	18-06-2002 22:25									#30
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Nym Of course we should wait before abandoning Apolyton. Even if its location is poor for a capital, it still produces commerce and so gold or science. I think we should keep on exploring until finding a new location for our empire, then build some cities. At this point Apolyton could be abandoned by producing a settler so to make the palace jump and New Apolyton could be built at the same location, which is still valuable for a city.

agreed! this seems to be a sound strategy.