18-06-2002 21:26									#1
	The Much-Maligned Commercial Trait Support Apolyton

I keep going back and forth on this one. Since 1.21f I've raised corruption back closer to previous levels, because I like it to be a factor in my games.

I just started two games. Game 1 is with the Persians. I got a settler from my first goody hut, with my first warrior - it couldn't have been more than ten turns into the game. Boy Howdy! Plus, my capital was sitting on some vineyards, so naturally I expanded pretty fast. I asked for continents but got a pangaea (how the heck do you spell that??). Now, cities in the third ring from the capital (still can't bring myself to pack 'em close, so we're talking 15 or so squares away) are completely crippled. Even at size 3 or 4 they still only produce one shield/turn. Expensive courthouses have only gotten them up to half-productivity.

Game 2 is with the Indians. I have 2 each of iron and horses, so my UU is a wash, but what the heck. I capture some Aztec cities on the far end of my smallish continent, probably 15-20 squares from my capital, and they are fine. No corruption/waste (!) for the first three commerce/shields, and then about 25% after that. I don't know what effect a courthouse would have, because I haven't had to build any! I am moving my capital to the center of the landmass now, and given some time the entire landmass will consist of "core" cities. My advisors suggested I build a FP, but I simply don't need one. What to do with it? Can you say "island colonies?"

Seriously, for all those who say you want a 2nd FP or leaders who reduce corruption, or other farfetched things like that, maybe you're just playing the wrong civs. If your style is to expand so much try out England, India or Rome.

Finally, while the point of this thread is to show that the trait does do something, I still think it does not do enough. All I want is for Firaxis to give commercial civs cheap marketplaces in the next patch/xp, and I will be happy.

	18-06-2002 22:23									#2
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Hmm... I figured the decreased corruption in the patch would further weaken "commercial" as now corruption is pretty tame.

As I understand it, the anti-corrution effects of "commercial" is merely an increase in the optimal # of cities... by ONE. Thus, if the optimal # of cities for the map size is 16, commercial civs will act like it's 17. That's just not a big difference.

Someone spent a lot of time working out exactly what commercial does for you... I forget the thread, but the general conclusion was that the trait is weak as hell.

-Arrian

	18-06-2002 22:47									#3
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Did you have as many cities in your India game as in your Persian game?

	18-06-2002 23:29									#4
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According to a rough estimate, a commercial civ saves 33 gold per turn from corruption at the end of the middle ages. This is OK, but not nearly as good as the advantages of other traits.

This is assuming you have twice the "optimal" number of cities on a standard map, all of size 12 with a marketplace, bank, library, and university, getting an average of 35 commerce each, and an optimally placed FP.

In reality you would have more than twice the optimal number of cities, but not all cities will be of max size, so it evens out.

The extra income from being commercial obviously increases when you get hospitals and the +1 center tile bonus, and when your cities start working more tiles. But by that time the game has been decided. In the ancient era when you need an advantage to fight the AI production bonuses, the commercial trait benefits are minimal.

	19-06-2002 01:47									#5
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IMHO it is a good thing for people who want more of a challenge. I.E. more difficult.
This does handicap the ai somewhat, so if you want slightly weaker opponents choose commercial civs to be your rivals and vice virsa

	19-06-2002 02:10									#6
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I didn't count the cites, but they should be roughly equal. The Indians did some a-conquering to make up for the Persians' rapid expanding.

The editor does not allow you to play around with civ traits; I still have not heard where the info is coming from that says the only difference is +1 optimal city. What I've been seeing simply does not bear it out. The difference is huge! I am getting antsy about this - we know almost exactly what the benefits of the other traits are, I want official literature that explains the benefits of commercial. Do you hear, Firaxis?

Alexman, what about waste? 33 shields per turn would actually be extremely useful. Corruption is important in this game (well, it used to be anyway). The FP is universally loved as the best SW. This trait seems to be having similar effects for me.

Arrian I never said that it was a strong trait, mind you. It still needs a good deal more punch. Specifically, cheaper marketplaces and banks, and that +1 commerce right from the start.

But alva is right: I'm getting pretty good at this game, I don't need to always be the strongest. I really like to play the French: the traits lack punch (faster workers and less corruption, but nothing specific, like cheap buildings or special units) and the UU stinks. Then I play against whatever trait advantages the ai civs have. Keeps things interesting.

Hmm, I'm going to go hunt down that thread that supposedly explains it...

	19-06-2002 02:23									#7
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quote: Originally posted by MiloMilo Alexman, what about waste? 33 shields per turn would actually be extremely useful. Corruption is important in this game (well, it used to be anyway). The FP is universally loved as the best SW. This trait seems to be having similar effects for me.

Well, the 33 extra gold assumed you get 35 commerce per city, or 2.7 commerce per tile. You generally don't get an average 2.7 shields per tile. Even if you did, 33 shields spread out over 32 cities (twice the optimal), is about one extra shield per city. Which leads to the often-stated conclusion about this trait

quote: Hmm, I'm going to go hunt down that thread that supposedly explains it...

Here and here you go!

	21-06-2002 03:23									#8
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quote: [SIZE=1] Arrian I never said that it was a strong trait, mind you. It still needs a good deal more punch. Specifically, cheaper marketplaces and banks, and that +1 commerce right from the start.

it's been quite awhile since i went commercial but i did play as the french a couple of times . arn't marketplaces allready cheaper for commercial civs? About halfprice?