21-06-2002 00:03									#31
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people who don't like the pyramids are still scared of deity unhappiness. Doubling your growth rate is the way to go.

	21-06-2002 00:05									#32
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Ramses, wrt your question. If P and HG are unavailable, STWA is my next priority.

	21-06-2002 00:11									#33
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quote: Originally posted by ramses II. But now back to my thread. The question was, which wonder would you build if the HG, the Pyras and the Colossus are no more available? I often take MPE or the GL.

That would never happen in my games. I've never screwed up to the point where I have neither Colossus or HG, happily. Hypothetically, if I lost both of those, I'd probably take MPE and trade techs like crazy while trying to crank out Settlers and Warriors, ICSing. I've tried Pyramids without HG, and the added growth only means added unhappiness, in the early going.

To CR: 3 wonders before 500 BC; I'm not sure I've ever done that - nice work! To me, early trade seems like a gamble... the number of times I've sent caravans on long trips, only to
a) lose them to sneak attacks
b) hunt in vain for a fat AI city to trade with, or
c) come up with a trade bonus of <100, after all the effort.

STYOM

	21-06-2002 00:17									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man I've tried Pyramids without HG, and the added growth only means added unhappiness, in the early going.

Very common reaction from players who are still overly intimidated by deity unhappiness.

Just use elvi, and warriors more. keep the cities tiny...and if necessary, move workers to lower food production (higher trade, shields). once you get Mikes, it is all cake. missing HG is not that big a deal. (I love it, though. But missing it is not thay aweful.)

	21-06-2002 00:53									#35
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I used to think not getting HG and/or Mikes was devestating. But after a lot of MP games you learn to deal with having neither, since it happens a lot. There are a couple of other stratagies that will work. SOL and Communism (or fundy for those the diehards) is one. Building a financial empire is another with markets banks and good trade routes. I've actually heard that building cathedrals can work

	21-06-2002 01:10									#36
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quote: Originally posted by GP Very common reaction from players who are still overly intimidated by deity unhappiness.

GP a newbie might think what patronising bullsh*t!
However, I know differently...just spam your way to Deity Have you made it to the top 10 posters yet?
----------------

SG(2)

	21-06-2002 03:22									#37
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quote: Originally posted by GP Very common reaction from players who are still overly intimidated by deity unhappiness.

Oh yes, that's me to a T

quote: Originally posted by GP Just use elvi, and warriors more. keep the cities tiny...and if necessary, move workers to lower food production (higher trade, shields). once you get Mikes, it is all cake. missing HG is not that big a deal. (I love it, though. But missing it is not thay aweful.)

If you're going to keep the cities tiny, why have Pyramids at all? The food box starts at empty when you found a city, so no help getting from size 1 to 2. Now, Pyr/HG is a good combo, because you can get to size 3-4 faster... but without HG, I'd rather keep 'em at size 2 and crank out Settlers.

If you don't like representative government, I agree, Pyramids makes sense... otherwise, WLTPD is faster.

STYOM

	21-06-2002 04:02									#38
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Use martial law and SOL fundy.

	21-06-2002 07:55									#39
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bah! wonders suck, you don't need them to win!

	21-06-2002 09:48									#40
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@GP
I'm not afraid of unhappiness caused by the pyramids. I do not hesitate making the first citizen an Elvis. When I miss HG, I'm on my way to Michelangelo's and SoL. Then my pop increases like crazy.

Last edited by ramses II. on 21-06-2002 at 11:19

	21-06-2002 15:41									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man To me, early trade seems like a gamble... the number of times I've sent caravans on long trips, only to a) lose them to sneak attacks b) hunt in vain for a fat AI city to trade with, or c) come up with a trade bonus of <100, after all the effort. STYOM

Yes, these things happen. I guess it's three more arguments in favour of the LH/MPE combo that arii used...

If I don't have MPE, I try to minimise the risks you mention. Losing caravans due to sneak attacks can be avoided by trading with coastal cities. Unloading the caravans directly into the city avoids all contact with a potentially angry AI.

If I have to embark first (the target city is a square or two from the sea), I always yield to their demand (within reason). They want 50 gold and I only have 51? Fine, my camel will bring it back the next turn and a science bonus! They want Map Making on top of that? Even better, maybe they will exchange maps (taking care of b) above)! They want a wonder tech? No problem, I'll rush it with the caravans back home later!

Finally, I believe the general consensus is that the AI is more aggressive and hostile in MGE? Playing 2.42 helps...

As for b), I guess playing a game a second time helps... Otherwise, I try to exchange maps, which can be tricky. I have to get them in a good mood by feeding them techs and the way the game handles this is poor. Why didn't the game designers give the player the chance to choose among all his/her techs??? Anyway, giving them Map Making is a must.

As for c), early in the game even a small cash bonus goes a long way filling the science box. I try to have a couple (3-4) of size 2 or 3 cities producing at least 5 shields. With 99 gold from a caravan I can buy a five shield row (11 gold each) in some of them every second turn nine times. If the second caravan brings in another 99 gold I will soon have 4 new caravans at home, enabling me to build the wonder that an AI may have started on.

Carolus

	21-06-2002 16:16									#42
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quote: Originally posted by GP people who don't like the pyramids are still scared of deity unhappiness.

Hah, hah, hah! Yes, I have trouble sleeping at night...

I think STYOM nailed it. If you plan to go representative, who needs them? It has been said before (by Smash?), but WLTLD = Instant Pyramids...

If you plan to go commie or fundie, ok, then why not? I'll buy the argument of using martial law warriors under Monarchy to curb unhappiness, but why do you want to grow only to use Elvis (unless it's only for a couple of turns)? Wait, you like his picture?

Carolus

	21-06-2002 18:24									#43
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Elvis makes other people in the city happy. Not just himself. plus I listed other options. (shifting resources away from food, etc.) Try to think a little more deeply, Rex.

	21-06-2002 19:29									#44
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on a conquest game , its far too easy to just let the ai hav e pyramids/any other wonder you don't really need... and go in and take it from them while you sight see their nation.....

In SP games, the pyramids isn't an option for me...like everyone states...the ai loves the pyramids....and i am usually too busy getting MPE, HG, STWA etc to really give a damm...

besides by mid game , i generally have ALL the wonders unless the map has been quite unruly to me

	22-06-2002 16:01									#45
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quote: Originally posted by GP Elvis makes other people in the city happy. Not just himself.

No kidding? Are you sure?

My point was this: what's the point of growing a city only to pick off the new worker? No extra shields, no extra trade... Which is why I said it was a short-term solution.

quote: Originally posted by GP plus I listed other options.

Which I said I agreed with.

Carolus

	22-06-2002 16:13									#46
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quote: Originally posted by GP Elvis makes other people in the city happy. Not just himself.

Another one that goes into my printed archive. What would I do without Apolyton's accumulated knowledge? I'd be lost, I tell you, lost!

Have the Gits been informed? I think this one deserves its place right up there in the GL, next to the Statue of Oedo!



Carolus

	22-06-2002 18:34									#47
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I was responding to your statement about only making elvi. My point is that you may be able to make extra citizens along with the elvi. Additional to that, there is the point, that one can convert the Elvi to normal guys after either Mikes or SOL are achieved.

If you want to guffaw like a ninny, go ahead. just don't make silly statements yourself, loser.

	22-06-2002 23:10									#48
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There seems to be a couple of different types of players at Poly....those who wait and attack with howies and those who attack earlier than that.

I for one attack as soon as i see the enemy, grab a few units and make my move. I do this with every tech window i can find, which can be many in some games and less in others....

its pretty obvious what your priorities are every game...lots of water..you need boats, lots of land you need happy/military wonders ..etc...

things like trade are needed in every game....trade wins the game and allows you to dominate an otherwise idiotic and childish ai....

but how many of you out there attack say with ellies/knights crooks/cats muskets/cannons calvalry/clads..... etc.....

i only leave a civ alive if they provide a trading empire for me.....otherwise leaving the ai to its own resources can be hazardous to your health.....especially when you have important techs which you don't want the ai to get a hold of...

the unfortunate thing about this game especially in water worlds etc..and this applies to mp...some wonders greatly unbalance the game thus making it difficult for players playing from behind to mount an efficient comeback.....

	22-06-2002 23:17									#49
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Missing wonders in MP isnt as bad as you can counter any of them exept LH and Magalans.

	23-06-2002 03:16									#50
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I think that I'm not the better player here, but I go to Mike directly and often Mike is my first wonder in both modes of play (SP and MP)

	23-06-2002 05:22									#51
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quote: Originally posted by atawa Missing wonders in MP isnt as bad as you can counter any of them exept LH and Magalans.

so true....but the first to HG has a huge advantage, you can expand expoenentially and WLTCD's are so much easier and quicker....

on a single continent, the ships aren't as important

	23-06-2002 16:08									#52
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quote: Originally posted by GP Additional to that, there is the point, that one can convert the Elvi to normal guys after either Mikes or SOL are achieved.

Again, this is why I agreed that using the King is a short term solution.

quote: Originally posted by GP If you want to guffaw like a ninny, go ahead. just don't make silly statements yourself, loser.

Guffaw? Ninny? CR looks in English-Swedish dictionary and comes up with "gapskratt" and "våp"...

Loosen up, my Apolyton friend. You either take yourself too seriously or don't have any sense of humour. I suggest you look up the meaning of "smiley" and check out the ones used here at Apolyton. My posts above are filled with them to give you an idea that I'm teasing/joking with you.

No need to go on the warpath.

BTW, the Pyramids are still a wonder for people who haven't grasped "the fundamentals"!

Carolus

	23-06-2002 20:44									#53
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I'm just trying to get some flames going to help my post count, rex, you wimpy builder who is scared of blackfaces, you.

	23-06-2002 22:27									#54
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever so true....but the first to HG has a huge advantage, you can expand expoenentially and WLTCD's are so much easier and quicker.... on a single continent, the ships aren't as important

On a single continent I agree, but most MP games are played with more islands.

As for HG: It costs 400 shields, or 4 caravans, witch can give you 4 techs and the money to buy a couple of temples.

	24-06-2002 00:46									#55
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quote: Originally posted by atawa As for HG: It costs 400 shields, or 4 caravans

Yes 4 caravans...but only 200 shields!

---------------------

Both SGs

	24-06-2002 02:57									#56
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quote: Originally posted by atawa On a single continent I agree, but most MP games are played with more islands. As for HG: It costs 400 shields, or 4 caravans, witch can give you 4 techs and the money to buy a couple of temples.

Both of these statements are partially false!

1 most games are NOT played on islands.....but i guess it depends on settings and/or whom you play with... i would be willing to say at most, half the games now are played on island worlds, but prior to the last year or so, i would say that almosts all games were played on large land masses....

HG is only 200 shields...the best early investment you can make in any game....any game!!!!!

with HG i can take out virtually anyone.....simply build your way to victory....so simple its boring

anyways.....we need to play, and iwill show your the power of HG

	24-06-2002 04:22									#57
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especially if your capital has a nice trade special or is near water... celebrating that early will give a handy trade bonus, its like building a colossus (and just as useful when/if you hit republic) on top of that you get an extra happy person in all your cities

	24-06-2002 15:56									#58
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quote: Originally posted by GP I'm just trying to get some flames going to help my post count, rex, you wimpy builder who is scared of blackfaces, you.

Heh, heh, heh... I see, glad to have been at your service... Hm, how can I help... How about this... In my book, people who care about their post counts and their Apolyton status are Internet nerds who probably have inferiority complexes in their real lives, where they have failed miserably to fulfill themselves... Hence the need to be somebody in cyberspace...

Hope this won't reduce my post count...

And, to avoid accusations of going off-topic, the Pyramids is still a crappy wonder...

Carolus

	24-06-2002 19:58									#59
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Pyramids rocks. I just turn off the notification thingie and enjoy creating unhappiness.

Seriously, Pyramids friggen doubles your growth rate. people like XinYu are very pro-pyramids. In general (maybe not with you) people who are anti-Pyramids are overly scared of deity unhappiness.

	24-06-2002 20:16									#60
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pyramids are useful, but it depends on the situation... if i've got a nice size 4 or 5 capital i'd go for col for the trade bonus, but if i've been going massive ICS then i'd certainly go for pyramids (assuming i miss HG) i usually build a lot of warriors early on before HR so i just send them to the new cities and unhappiness problem solved