19-06-2002 11:53									#1
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I play deity, 7 civs, raging, map 125x80.
My research goes straight to monarchy, then trade.
The first wonder I manage to build is Marco Polo's or the Great Library. The AI is faster in building the Hanging Gardens or the Colossus.
Should I research pottery first? I have noticed that your expansion is faster with the HG.

In my actual game I've had tons of luck getting the needed techs by tipping huts:
I managed to build the HG, the Pyramids, Colossus (in HG-city!), Marco Polo's and so on (I'm no fan of the GL, i prefer MP, I only build the GL to prevent the AI building it).
Delhi, my capital, is a SSC with all needed wonders (Colossus, Shakespeare's, Copernicus', Isaac's, SETI) and city improvements.
The AI has only build 4 or 5 WoW, for example Sun Tzu's in London, meanwhile a pearl in my crown, the GL in the Aztec capital - meanwhile an Indian province capital. And Rome is an Indian city, too. It was nuked, then taken by my paratoopers.
My space ship is on the way, I managed to destroy two other space ships.

But now back to my question. Which wonder would you build first, and what would you build, if the HG, the Pyramids and the Colossus are no more available?

Last edited by ramses II. on 19-06-2002 at 12:41

	19-06-2002 12:32									#2
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Gardens - every time. Start your capital on the Colossus (or any other WoW) as soon as you have established martial law (or built a Temple if you like laundrettes) get Pot at your leisure and transform to HG -- you truly need fell fortune not to get the Gardens this way - normally before any AI civ even starts a Wonder. With happiness assured - go kick butt in your favourite way.

If the bad guys have got HG, Pyramids & Col - I'm in a bad way ... Mike's is now essential and I shall get that, but next on the list is probably either the LH or MPE can be a hard call on a large watery world and given the start the AI has already got you are very unlikely to get both of these and Mike's

SG[1]

	19-06-2002 15:42									#3
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Agreed, Hanging Gardens. Not that you can't complete Colossus before if you want to, though (provided you can without knowing pottery). I used to use Pyramids, but no longer do.
It very much depends on the kind of game you want to play. For early conquest/ICS, HG is definitiely the choice. If you want a spaceship, well, Colossus may be better. In OCC, Colossus or Marco Polo, or even Copernicus if you are lucky enough to research astronomy fast.

	19-06-2002 17:30									#4
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In MP, HG. It really helps in the initial land grab if you're playing deity. You don't have to rush those temples after 12 cities. For the production of a temple, you can make another settler. It's also nice for SP but the AI usually isn't as concerned with happiness wonders so you can wait on it a bit.

RAH

	19-06-2002 18:17									#5
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Not an expert here, but that doesn't mean I'm without an opinion.

I play SP, deity, raging, medium world.
--I always have greatest success when I get HG first.
--My 2nd choice is Colossus, then racing to Mike's.

In your scenario, MPE is the obvious early WoW, but you'd better get Mike's too or you'll be, uh, well... unhappy about it..

	19-06-2002 20:39									#6
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I tend to build the colossus first, but will take the hanging gardens sometimes, instead. It depends on the game. The gardens are a fine substitute wonder for a SSC, and the happiness boost is too hard to pass up.

	19-06-2002 20:59									#7
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Boringly, HG. With a semi reasonable start you can get to trade and produce 4 caravans before the AI gets it. If you don't think you have a good enough start then by all means start it early.

	19-06-2002 21:11									#8
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hg/pyramids.


but to answer your question (assume these are gone) would go for STWA.

GL to AI is no biggie. Let em have it.

	19-06-2002 22:58									#9
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SG[1] said it all.

Except that I wouldn't have a city working on a wonder; I'd go for Trade and build caravans instead.

Carolus

	19-06-2002 23:52									#10
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I have found that starting a WoW sometime before Monarchy is certain way of getting the first W of your choice (HGHGHGHGHG), then a bit of capital infrastructure followed by the 'vans for subsequent Ws

SG[1]

	20-06-2002 00:25									#11
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(Assuming SP-Deity) HG is usually first. Start with Colossus and switch when I get Pottery. If nobody else has started a wonder when I'm close to finishing it, I may switch back to Colossus and let it get built, just for the arrow/science boost early on. Then when I have Trade, I can be pretty sure of getting HG too, via building 4 Caravans faster than the AI can landscape

Ideally I'd like both of them, and usually I get 'em. In rare cases I can even snag MPE. I never build GL or Pyramids anymore, for the usual reasons. I don't think I've built Lighthouse, STWA, GW or Oracle, more than once or twice each, ever.

STYOM

	20-06-2002 00:30									#12
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I build Hanging gardens first. Here's why:
1) The three happy faces in your capitol will give you extra trade and science as soon as you get to size 3.
2) Expanding past 10 in monarchy or4/5 in despotism is difficult w/o HG because the first citizen is unhappy. This means that you need to build a warrior in addition to a settler to get a new city started.
3) Later on, the extra happy face in each city is the difference that lets every city celebrate and grow, regardless of size under democracy. Without HG you will need to build a courthouse.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I find that the ai wants to build pyramids first. I start on a wonder in my capitol after it has one defender and has produced one settler. Almost any starting location with some trade and some shields will let you do this.

	20-06-2002 00:39									#13
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quote: Originally posted by geofelt I build Hanging gardens first. Here's why: 1) The three happy faces in your capitol will give you extra trade and science as soon as you get to size 3.

Good point. I'm not always at size 3 by that time (due to 'size 2' strat of of maxing shields) but that's something to consider if the city is about to grow naturally.

And I agree with the other points... that's why I will ALWAYS build HG first if there is a chance the AI has a shot at getting it if I finish Colossus first.

	20-06-2002 01:13									#14
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I like the LH. You can go explore safely, tipping huts with a diplo, and you can establish some early trade routes. And nobody, nobody, can do anything about it (well, almost)!

In one of the comparison games we played last fall (one of Smash's?), I tried going for LH first with a good early game as a result. IIRC it gave me nice trade, which bought caravans, which gave me the other wonders. To be fair, this was the second attempt with the same map so I had prior knowledge about where my neighbours were (most of us played the same game several times).

Carolus

	20-06-2002 01:53									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Carolus Rex I like the LH. You can go explore safely, tipping huts with a diplo, and you can establish some early trade routes. And nobody, nobody, can do anything about it (well, almost)! Carolus

I tend to be pretty isolationist in the early going, so perhaps that's why the LH never seems a priority for me. Ideally, if I could have a big continent to myself, and put down 2 dozen cities before I meet anyone, I'd be happy, if a bit bored (since the rest of the game will be a foregone conclusion). I trade more aggressively when I get to Republic, and hopefully by that time I have access to Caravels. Or at least I don't have to strike out blindly in Triremes.

That said, the benefits you mention sound good - but would you take LH at the expense of the Colossus and/or HG?

	20-06-2002 01:57									#16
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HG all the way.......but i ususally let my opponents build it, this guarrantees my learning to play without this crutch.

its by far the best early wonder.....and coupled with pyramids is the best 400 shields that can be put to use in the game...

the builder of HG can expand expoenentially, while others have to tone down or escort or rush build temples to keep pace...

against an icser its imparative to prevent them from landing this wonder

	20-06-2002 02:02									#17
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Sorry guys, but for me the colossus is a grossly overrated Wonder - granted its pretty essential for OCC, but I would gladly miss out on it in favour of growing my capital faster by force feeding it with Settlers and Food caravans (What IS a 'representative government'?) - I truly feel that the benefits are marginal - but I'm not a great SSC champion - I prefer to turn off science and further technology with trade once I have my Crooks and Clads - any gains the AI may make are momentary - I have an Embassy and a Diplomatic Corps - 30 shields a tech is pretty cheap.
Thanks, geofelt, for putting it in a nutshell.

SG[1]

	20-06-2002 02:24									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Sorry guys, but for me the colossus is a grossly overrated Wonder - granted its pretty essential for OCC, but I would gladly miss out on it in favour of growing my capital faster by force feeding it with Settlers and Food caravans (What IS a 'representative government'?)

Therein lies the difference in our games... I like Rep/Demo for the WLTPD's... with HG and Colossus in the same city, happiness is easier to come by. Extra trade arrows = more luxuries = easier to keep WLTPD going, of course. And then those food caravans aren't needed.

Naturally this approach keeps me from being too militaristic until the mid- or late- stages of the game. But if I do decide on conquest, the tech advantage from the Colossus-SSC pays off.

You mentioned OCC, SG[1]. Would the Colossus be more important to you if you were planning on going the spaceship route from the start, as opposed to conquest?

STYOM

	20-06-2002 02:33									#19
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Wimpy builder. I like the pyramids for the doubling of growth rate. HG for help with unhappiness. And STWA for ripping tits.

	20-06-2002 03:59									#20
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Natually, Pyramids is the first to build when using my size 5 strategy.

	20-06-2002 04:03									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man That said, the benefits you mention sound good - but would you take LH at the expense of the Colossus and/or HG?

Not at the expense of HG. Colossus, hm... Don't know... In the game I mentioned in my post above, I think I got all three thanks to getting the LH first, setting up trade routes across the seas and then rushbuying the other two (caravans).

Carolus

	20-06-2002 05:30									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Carolus Rex Not at the expense of HG. Colossus, hm... Don't know... In the game I mentioned in my post above, I think I got all three thanks to getting the LH first, setting up trade routes across the seas and then rushbuying the other two (caravans). Carolus

I'll have to try that. In my games things never go that well... by the time I finish the first wonder, most of the AIs are building one of their own. I'd have to get Trade & Mapmaking, plus Triremes built pretty fast, in order to reach AI cities to trade with and then be able to rush HG/Colossus...

It'd be a close one, most times! You say you knew where the AI was due to a second attempt? Without that knowledge, perhaps MPE might be a better option than LH, if you want to trade early with the AI?

STYOM

	20-06-2002 07:30									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu Natually, Pyramids is the first to build when using my size 5 strategy.

I have used the 5 strategy many times but never started with the Pyramids as I always "b" settlers into the cities to reach size 5.

Xin - sometime last year you were explaining a version of the two continent strategy, having the Colossus city trading with the celebrating Gardens city on a different landmass. Was the capital the city with the Colossus?

----------------

SG(2)

	20-06-2002 11:12									#24
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I play deity (SP, map 125x80, raging, other parameters medium), trying to reach AC. I play deity since february 2002, after 2 years of playing chieftain.
It's one aspect of my strategy that I forsake most of the ancient wonders, some of the medival, but none of the modern wonders.
In nearly all my games I manage to build MPE, (sometimes GL), Mike's, Bachs, Leo's, Magellan's, Adam After building SoL I normally switch to Fundi, Smith's, SoL, Hoover Dam, UN and so on.


1) to make some ca$h to improve the infrastructure
2) for easy expansion (rush building settlers)
3) to discover the rest of the world with some rush-built diplos and caravels (I normally have 6-7 caravels, each of them with 3 diplos).
4) to rush build WoW, if the needed tech is available.

With Mike's and Bach's and -later- Cure for Cancer (yes, I like this "WLTP"-forcing wonder) unhappiness is no problem, when I switch back to demo. In my last game there was a global warming, but my cities still grew.

My research program: 80% taxes, 20% science, tons of kleptomaniacs (ahemm, diplos and spies). Tech theft will cause no war in Fundi.

At this state of the game I've alway 3-4 well developped cities (temple, aqueduct, colosseum, city walls, market place, harbor) building wonders. I try to avoid long wars , for they are costly, but if an AI insists in being conquered, I'll do them the favour. Each sneak attack costs a city ...
I normally finish my games with about 160-180 million people, the complete space ship and a score of about 350 %. I know that I will never appear in any Hall of Fame. Playing civ - it's just fun for me.

But now back to my thread. The question was, which wonder would you build if the HG, the Pyras and the Colossus are no more available? I often take MPE or the GL.

	20-06-2002 11:44									#25
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LH or MPE. Oracle dies too early and GL can give you stuff you don't want, raising beaker costs and obsoleting Warriors (hurts rushing).

	20-06-2002 12:02									#26
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I've heard of that naval strategy. Building the LH, later Magellan's, ruling the seas and shores by vet ironclads (and crusaders)... isn't that your strategy, Scouse Gits?

	20-06-2002 14:20									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man I'll have to try that. In my games things never go that well...

Not in my games either!

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man by the time I finish the first wonder, most of the AIs are building one of their own.

True, but the AI has a crush on the Pyramids and the GL. I don't care what GP says, but the Pyramids are for people who haven't grasped "the fundamentals"... The AI can have those two, no problem! I see some value of the GL in alliance MP games, where it puts a restriction on tech trade, but in SP I gladly leave it (and the Pyramids) to the AI.

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man I'd have to get Trade & Mapmaking, plus Triremes built pretty fast, in order to reach AI cities to trade with and then be able to rush HG/Colossus... It'd be a close one, most times! You say you knew where the AI was due to a second attempt? Without that knowledge, perhaps MPE might be a better option than LH, if you want to trade early with the AI?

Yes, I had map knowledge so it wasn't a fair game... I agree with you, MPE is very good. But getting both LH and MPE is viable, is it not? Good combo for early trade in ocean worlds!

Carolus

	20-06-2002 14:37									#28
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Ok, just bumped the thread (Come! Laugh at an SG!).

I have a log starting at page 7.

LH built in capitol 1450 BC.
HG built in capitol 1000 BC.
Colossus built in capitol 775 BC.

But, yes, second attempt.

Carolus

	20-06-2002 14:45									#29
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But, of course, check arii's 1208 AD landing for a master's strategy!

Carolus

	20-06-2002 14:59									#30
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Speaking of the value of MPE... Seems to have been vital in arii's game!

Carolus