03-04-2000 16:04									#1
	Ancient Scenario Get a bigger avatar today!

You know, I've been thinking. Gemini is already working on a WWII-scenario and even though it'll take him a while to finish it I'm not sure if it would be very useful for me to make a WWII-scenario as well. We'll have two WWII-scenarios around but nothing else. If I make a scenario about e.g. the Ancient World (more specifically, Rome - after WWII my favourite 'episode' in history), we'd have some more variety. The only real problem with this I see is that there aren't too many sprites of ancient units around (not the way it is with Harlan's WWII-units) and I'm have no experience in sprite-making (but, knowing myself, I expect I won't be very good at it).
So, what does everyone think of this? Are there any graphic-makers who can help me out if I decide to go through with this?

	04-04-2000 04:38									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Morgoth has been working on an ancient mod for some time now. It is why he has been making all his units (though they did fit in well with my plans, too).
You could try getting in contact with him, and maybe you two could work together on this.

	04-04-2000 22:15									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Locutus, WesW
Unfortunately I haven't done anything significant in making a mod yet. I've played my own 'early variation on Wes's Medieval mod 2 and will shortly try out the medieval mod 3. However haven't really found the time to make many sprites or play the game lately.

The mod I was going to do was a 'through the ages' mod which is sort of what Wes's Medieval Mod is turning out to be.

To be honest I'm also really waiting for a couple of other games to come out at the moment but they keep getting delayed.

	07-04-2000 01:50									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

A ROME scenario?
Great, I missed it for so long.
My sword is ready.
100 men are recruited.
Enough spears are sharpened.
We have wine for 20 days.
Lets go for gallia.
Salve!!

	10-04-2000 23:35									#5
	Suffering from ads?

Morgoth,

Too bad you're busy doing other things, you're graphics are the best (better even than Activision's). If you (and/or Katy) plan on making any more sprites that might be useful for my scenario, let me know.

Lord Silvi,

Glad to hear there's an audience for my scenario. But be warned, it'll take me a while to finish it, I've got lot's of other stuff to do as well.

All,

I did some research to find out what kind of units I need and what is already available and I think I'll still need the units listed below. A lot of my idea's came from Age of Empires, maybe someone could convert (some of) those units to CtP-format? Of course units that are designed from scratch (like Morgoths work) are generally of better quality, but for now I'd be glad enough to get anything. If anyone has ancient units that aren't on my list, I'd love to see and use them as well. Well, here's my list (as it is for now):

[*] Melee Units


[*] a Light Spearman (something in between the Phalanx and Morgoth's Egyptian Spearman)
[*] a Very Heavy Spearman - more like a lanceman (is that the correct English word for it?), something like the Centurion in Age of Empires
[*] a Light Swordman (something in betweeen the Legion and Morgoth's Swordman)
[*] some kind of Heavy Swordman, a la AoE's Longswordman and/or Broadswordman
[*] a Light Axeman, as a predecessor for Morgoths Huscarl
[/list]
[*] Cavalry Units


[*] I'd really like to see the Elephant Archer from AoE converted to CtP format (as Harlan already did with the War Elephant)
[*] a Chariot and/or a Chariot Archer (Harlan already made one but I don't really like the sprite, it doesn't fit all the other sprites I've found so far)
[*] I vagely recall someone working on a Camel Cavalry Unit or something like that. I don't remember who it was, but that would be great to have as well
[/list]
[*] Ranged Units


[*] one more Siege Unit, I already have the Catapult from the Apolyton Pack but I'd like one more
[*] two or three Archers/Bowmen, now there's only one Archer available (plus Morgoth's Slinger), but I'll need a few more for my scenario
[/list]
[*] Naval Units

I hardly have any ships yet, just the Trireme and Fire Trireme that went with the game (and I might use the Longship as well), but I will certainly need more ships


[*] some sort of Galley
[*] a very Light Ship, a la AoE's Scout Ship
[*] some very heavy attack ship, something like AoE's Juggernaught
[/list]
[/list=a]
I'll try and make a tech/unit tree to show how I plan to fit all my (ideas for) units into my scenario and to make that available on my website so everyone can see what my idea's are and comment on them. But that will take me some time as I have plenty of other things to do as well.

Locutus
[This message has been edited by Locutus (edited April 10, 2000).]

	11-04-2000 00:22									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I believe the English Term is a "Lancer", but I could be wrong

	11-04-2000 00:31									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Thanx, Krusty, that was the word I was looking for. (Now why does my dictionary translate "Lancer" to Dutch, but not the Dutch word for it to English? )

	17-04-2000 00:31									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

No-one has any graphics for me or is willing to make them?
That makes it a lot less attractive to make this scenario but I'll go on with it anyway. It will make the scenario a lot less good, but that's still better than no scenario at all And it's still not too late...

	20-04-2000 02:11									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hi,
I think the English term "lancer" only applies to mounted units armed with lances. E.g. The famous "Bengal Lancers" of the British Indian Army.

Phalanxes or Hopilites would be a better word for a heavily armoured spearman of the Ancient world.
Pikemen were also footmen armed with very long spears during late Medieval and Renaissance eras (I don't know why the swiftly obsolete CTP unit of the same name is depicted with what looks more like a halberd, plus Ancient Egyptian garb).

	21-04-2000 09:13									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Tuerkuem, (interesting name, does it mean anything?)
Thanks for the info, it seems even though there may not be a good name for what I was talking about, people understand what I was referring to and that's what it's all about. Yes, it is true the the graphics of CtP, although good-looking, are often historically inaccurate (sometimes even absurd in case of i.e. televangelist). Hopefully this will change in CtPII.

All,
I'm trying to put together a advances tree and I need some help with ideas for city improvements. I need a few ancient improvements that give production and one or two that give gold as well. Any ideas? I can only come up with the Forge for production and even that isn't my idea.

	21-04-2000 09:33									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

How about the invention of coins minted by the government? It was an incredibly important development because it allowed commerce and trade to develop between both individuals, and between nations.

	21-04-2000 00:08									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

Well, actually I wasn't really looking for the advances self (I have so many ideas for those I could fill three trees with that ) but rather the improvements that are enabled by these advances. But the Mint as a city-improvement is a really good idea. I'll probably include that in my scenario.
What does everyone think of the Masonry as an improvement to boost production?

	21-04-2000 02:49									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Locutus
I can't promise anything but whatare the top few units you'd like. I've got a bit of vacation at the moment and (if the weather's crap and I'm not playing IG2) then I might have time to have a go at some sprites for you (don't tell Wes cause I'm suppose to finish some off for him too )

	21-04-2000 14:15									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

He, thanx a lot Morgoth (don't worry I won't tell Wes )
I made a list with the units with the hightest priority (it's probably more than you can do but it gives you some choice should you not like certain units for some reason). With the highest priority on top here it is:

1. Naval units (all have equally high priority but should you have time for several units I'd prefer you to make one (or maybe two) ships and then move further down the list)
2. Archer(s)
3. Chariot (and/or Chariot Archer)
4. Heavy Swordman
5. Spearman (either heavy or light)
6. Siege unit
7. Elephant
8. Light axeman

Everything else (more archers, light spear- & swordman, heavy spearman) is equally important and on the bottom of my list.
I could really use #1 & #2, everything else is somewhat less important.

Man, you're a lucky man. I can't even remember the last time I had a vacation and the only vacation I've got coming up won't be much of a vacation since I will have to redo some of my exams I didn't pass them in the first place because of CtP
[This message has been edited by Locutus (edited April 21, 2000).]

	30-04-2000 18:09									#15
	Put an end to popups!

Morgoth,
I sent you an email a few days back but I didn't get a reply, did you receive it?

Locutus (aka Wouter Snijders)

	01-05-2000 09:46									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

Locutus
Yes, received it but hadn't yet replied. I was running out of time on various things - but managed to achieve nothing!

I'll finish WesW's sprites tomorrow so those will be out of the way. Regrding the units. I was thinking of doing a light Javelin man -(Velite type unit) also possibly a light Roman style dart thrower. Katy was doing a Mongol style horse archer which if she doesn't finish it I may have a go and try and complete.

Unfortunately weather was fairly bad here so I've a lot of catching up to do in May but I'll see what I can do.

	02-05-2000 23:38									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hey Locutus, man that would be so sweet if a ancient rome scenario gets made. It's one of my favourite subjects next to ww2. About the units, I had an idea, you could use units made for civ2 scenario's. They would be one facing but you could probably find all the units you would be looking for, also it is really easy to make one facing units, harlan I think included a script with his how to make units guide, also I have a script here. So if you need more info on this let me know.

------------------
Gemini

	08-05-2000 09:15									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

well, I dont know if one of go to school but if you want to made a good scenario, just make it reel. The roman NEVER attack directly, they use their pilum and tactic like that. Roman never play on attack, they play on defend. Each night, their legion build a fort ( in 37 min.) thats why they win vs the Grec. The Grec were about 2 500,000 and the roman were just 250,000.

	08-05-2000 03:13									#19
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Lucutus:

Hey! Did you get the email???
We should really talk--I have most of those units, but they're not converted directly from AoK & AoE because they are way too damn small!
So, they are nothing too fancy (no animations), but 5-facing and proportional sizes to other CtP units.

These are ones I have so far:

Ancient Infantry (color is red)
Phalanx-like unit (gold, silver)
Mid-East Phalanx-like unit
Legion-like unit (blue, silver)
War Elephant (no rider)
War Elephant (rider has spear)
Elephant Archer (a few colors)
Priest (white & gold)
Longbowman (blue)
Chariot (blue, gold)
Chariot (red, gold)
Early Cavalry (blue, gold)
And I have six ancient seacraft done.

I'm planning a generic "tribesman" unit, with an Aip-specific note, to replace the native "warrior" unit--a guy with a big club. Also, a war galley, knight, axeman, skermisher, mounted camel unit, and a ballistic "scorpion" unit.

Doing them up is easy, it's just that they're not sprites yet--can't do it with my program
Any ideas?

Well, I have a map to make. Let me know.
Later.

Tom.

	09-05-2000 15:41									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Morgoth,

Oh ok. Yes, I know exactly what you mean. Thanks for doing those units. I don't know of how much use a Mongol Horse Archer will be (after all, it's a mainly European scenario - although maybe Persia will be included as well), I guess I'd have to see it to find out, but the others are highly useful. Well, whatever you do, I'm grateful already

gemini,

Yes, I decided on doing an ancient scenario because you were already making a WWII one and the Roman Age is my favourite part of history after WWII as well.
Anyway, the problem with your CivII idea is that most graphics would require at least some touching up and I'm a complete moron when it comes down to making graphics. Text-file editing and programming and stuff like that is easy but even removing an ugly edge around an existing picture or something like that is too much for me. I have the script Harlan provided and I think I'm even capable of adapting it if necessary but getting even a one-facing unit together is gonna be very difficult for me. So I really need pre-made graphics. Luckily I found out last week how to convert Age of Empire graphics to CtP format and actually that's so easy even I can do it! Even animations should be a piece of cake (although I haven't actually had the time to tried that yet). So together with Morgoth's and maybe Nordicus's units that should solve most of my graphics problems.

wilco000,

What you're describing is tactical warfare and CtP (and Civilization in gerenal) is not so much a tactical game but more a strategic one. And in the strategic area the Romans were quite aggressive. I have been thinking of giving the same or similar units different attributes for different civilizations to reflect this kind of thing. The Greeks were very aggresive so a higher attack value would be justified and the Romans were more defensive so they should have higher defensive values. The Celts always quarrel under each-other where the Carthagians are generally very united, this could also somehow affect certain things (though I don't know how yet). In some cultures religion was more important then in others so the effect of temples might be stronger in some civs. For now I haven't made any decisions in this area yet but I am considering it.

Nordicus,

Yes, I got your email and replied to it (a little late since I was out of town for the weekend). The units sound fantastic, send me whatever you have, I'd love to take a look. Don't worry about the them being sprites, I can take care of that, as long as it doesn't involve much more then adding an alpha channel or something like that.

everyone,

I'm still looking for an idea for one more production improvement and if someone has a great idea for a gold improvement as well that would be great (I have plenty of idea's for that but none of them are really good IMO).

Locutus