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markusf
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
Yep, corporate welfare, bailouts, protectionism, our government is pretty damn corrupt. |
ON paper everything looks good.. Ever wonder where all that money goes? Ever wonder why companies still go under after a massive bailout and the money is nowhere to be found?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:20
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quote:
Implying I wanted to destroy the companies. No, I want to make them accountable. I'm not looking for alternatives to a privately-owned company, I'm looking for some damn accountability and regulatory oversight, as well as an end to corporate welfare. Is that so tough? |
I assume you'll also suport an end to welfare for individuals, too, then - it's the same thing, giving money to people or entities that is not earned.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Your defensiveness about corporate America is pretty funny. Notice I didn't blame all corporations or all CEOs. |
Hmmm. Well perhaps you should be far more careful with your wording, because you've clearly implied otherwise:
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The point is good, though, that much of the current economic mess in the U.S. is due to the greed of corporate CEOs rather than the "inevitable market forces" like they claim. And the continued Wall Street stagnation is due to absolute distrust among investors of corporate leadership. |
quote:
But many CEOs and corporate boards are exploiting their companies, looting them and then walking off with huge compensation packages. |
Many people are going on shooting rampages, mugging elderly ladies, and raping small kittens, too. Why don't we start a thread about how corrupt people are and how clueless people are if they insist otherwise?
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It's not just Enron, and if you think that's an isolated case, you must be the retard. It's a sickness all over corporate America, and now the general public is coming to distrust corporations as much as they do politicians (which is only fair). |
There are bad apples in every bunch, it's just the bad ones that get the publicity. You're taking things way out of proportion if you think this is the "tip of the iceburg" and you're basically on one of those "the sky is falling" mentalities that socialists have been screaming for hundreds of years. The result? More capitalism. Keep it up though, you're making a difference. 
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I know you guys get hysterical whenever anyone dares to impugn your corporate masters, but I think the time has come that we lay the smack-down on these greedy bastards running the show. Dismantle the corporations? No. But make them accountable, dammit, and make it impossible for them to pull the kind of crap Enron did with Arthur Anderson, which was hoodwinking the investors until it was too late. |
What the hell, Boris?
What Enron/Anderson did was illegal, and amazingly they were both punished as well. What more do you want? Do you want us to cut off the CEO's balls and hang it in your living room next to the riding crop?
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JohnIII
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I fail to see what a majority has to do with a blanket statement. Are you suddenly for the majority trampling the minority?
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Hmmm. Well perhaps you should be far more careful with your wording, because you've clearly implied otherwise: |
Are you on drugs? Nothing in what you quoted came even close to asserting all or even most CEOs were corrupt. I was pointing out how some corporate misdeeds were now being repaid by distrust on Wall Street.
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Many people are going on shooting rampages, mugging elderly ladies, and raping small kittens, too. Why don't we start a thread about how corrupt people are and how clueless people are if they insist otherwise? |
First, I didn't start this thread. Second, were none of the above malefactors being held accountable and punished for their misdeeds, then pointing out that such issues would need to be addressed is fine. Shooting rampage perps are in jail. Ken Lay is on a beach in Barbados.
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There are bad apples in every bunch, it's just the bad ones that get the publicity. |
Let's not make the system more resistant to bad apples, since there are only a few of them. Sure, those few plunder $billions which ultimately costs the taxpayers money, and screw tens of thousands out of their pensions and investments. Great idea, Asher. 
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You're taking things way out of proportion if you think this is the "tip of the iceburg" |
You're utterly naive. Work in the corporate world for bit like I have and see it for yourself. You have no idea what you're talking about. So go away (how's that for some of your own medicine).
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and you're basically on one of those "the sky is falling" mentalities that socialists have been screaming for hundreds of years. The result? More capitalism. Keep it up though, you're making a difference. |
I have never asserted the sky was falling, I'm simply asking for more accountability and more aggressive defense of companies from their looters. I'm not anti-capitalism, I'm anti-corruption. And therefore I am for regulated capitalism. Laissez-faire is dead and will not come back.
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What Enron/Anderson did was illegal, and amazingly they were both punished as well. What more do you want? Do you want us to cut off the CEO's balls and hang it in your living room next to the riding crop? |
For Ken Lay, sure. I've dealt with enough of his victims that I think he is an utter bastard. And is he in jail? No. Punished? That's your idea of punishment? You have no clue how much suffering these corrupt men have inflicted on the people who worked for them. They betrayed their employees, people who devoted their lives to the company. What does that teach people about unremitted capitalism?
It's not just Enron. It's Tyco, imClone, Global Crossing, Lucent, Nike, General Motors, General Electric, ChevronTexaco. Is it every company? No. Is it a lot of the biggest ones? Definitely. And since they control most of the wealth, they have the most power to ruin the lives of most people.
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Anderson was just found guilty, the company is being killed, IIRC.
I'm not sure about Enron, because frankly I don't give a crap.
The problem with Enron is with Bush more than anything else, and I can't stand Bush.
It has nothing to do with corporate America as a whole, but rather the government. |
Who the hell do you think runs the U.S. Government? Campaigns are run on corporate dollars. Bills are passed based on which corporate interest can lobby the hardest. The problem isn't Bush, he's a stool pigeon. He's the puppet of the oil and energy companies, and they loan him out to their other corporate buddies. Bush didn't destroy Enron, it destroyed itself, and Bush was lucky to dodge the fallout (so far). Especially given the fact that Enron single-handedly manufactured the phony California energy crisis of 2 years ago, I think it's pretty damned impossible to assert the problem lies with some braindead politician.
The problem is the nearly-unlimited ability corporate executives CEOs have to abuse their power and the trust of their employees and stockholders and get away with it. Ken Lay got away with it, don't you see? He's not being charged. He's keeping his millions. Who cares if his company collapsed, he made out like a bandit.
Some CEOs don't take advantage of the system's weaknesses and are good, upstanding people. That in no way means we shouldn't make it as hard as possible for those who aren't so nice to pull the same kind of crap that Lay did.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Let's not make the system more resistant to bad apples, since there are only a few of them. Sure, those few plunder $billions which ultimately costs the taxpayers money, and screw tens of thousands out of their pensions and investments. Great idea, Asher. |
How do you propose we stop them, hmm? Are you saying it's a government problem? Exactly.
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You're utterly naive. Work in the corporate world for bit like I have and see it for yourself. You have no idea what you're talking about. So go away (how's that for some of your own medicine). |
I work for a corporation, although I'm certainly not high up in them. Although I doubt you are either.
What do you do for what corporation, Boris?
And how on earth would you relate your personal experiences at one company into a discussion on how widespread it is, shouldn't you be employed at many companies for that to happen?
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It's not just Enron. It's Tyco, imClone, Global Crossing, Lucent, Nike, General Motors, General Electric, ChevronTexaco. Is it every company? No. Is it a lot of the biggest ones? Definitely. And since they control most of the wealth, they have the most power to ruin the lives of most people. |
HAH. What did most of those companies do?
ChevronTexaco I'm particularly interested in, because I happen to know quite a lot about that company.
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markusf
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
HAH. What did most of those companies do?
ChevronTexaco I'm particularly interested in, because I happen to know quite a lot about that company. |
As boris said, you don't know anything. When you work for a company, you don't have a clue whats going on. The only thing you know is what they tell you (generally lies) at the weekly feel good meetings. One day you show up for work and it turns out everyone in your office is fired or the company is bankrupt.
I am saying a majority of corperations with over 5 million in income are corrupt, just look at the salaries of the CEO's and look how long CEO's stay around, basically they have a printing press and just print themselves shares/options. Then you have all the "crap" companies that list on the OTC, there are thousands of them, basically they got a printing press going printing off millions of shares once they have enough shares, they, run up the price dump all thier stock and then leave investors holding the bag all the way to bankruptcy court. 2 months later they are up and running a new company. Is it illegal? Technically no, Are they ever going to get caught or punished? NO. To give you an idea of just how corrupt the business world in canada is, the TSE published a report last year saying that 70% of all quarterly earnings reports where leaked before hand.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:20
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quote:
Welfare to individuals is right and necessary to give a decent life to all. |
Stealing is never acceptable, even to benefit others who would otherwise have a worse life. Stealing is basically taking something without consent, and, as applied to a democratic system, taking what the majority wants from the minority. No difference.
And whoever said a "decent life" is a right? Speaking of which, why don't you define "decent life", and explain to me why what we consider poverty in the US would be considered prosperous in Africa?
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Corporate welfare pads the pockets of those who already have enough. |
So does the other kind of welfare, using the standards of the majority of people in the world, who would much rather have that stolen money be used on them.
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If I steal a loaf of bread to feed my starving family, that's one thing. If I steal the Crown Jewels because I want an addition to my mansion it's another. |
Sure, the first is a little more understandable, but just as unjustified and wrong.
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Give it up, David. We as a society have the moral responsibility to feed the hungry and clothe the poor. |
Really? Good thing the statement "we as a society" is an incoherent phrase - what you mean is that "I as an individual and everyone else as individuals...", however, I reject the notion of inherent responsibility towards others.
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Giving our (collective) money to our economic betters is just plain stupid. |
Not from an economic point of view - the more money the rich get, the more money gets pumped into the economy in various ways, and the better off we all become.
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20-06-2002 01:32
Umm... no..... 
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