24-06-2002 04:54									#31
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so are you saying you don't want to be supreme unless your tech advantage , pop advantage etc is huge???

	24-06-2002 05:16									#32
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever so are you saying you don't want to be supreme unless your tech advantage , pop advantage etc is huge???

damn straight. Being supreme is bad for your science.

Actually it depends on the number of players and who your key civ is. If your in first place on the PG and your keyciv has 9 techs, and player 2 is in second place and his keyciv has 3 techs then player 2's beaker cost will be a lot higher then player 1. If you last on the PG or second last when there are 4 players i think you don't get a penalty at all.

	24-06-2002 06:10									#33
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who would be the second players key civ then? the second worst player? is that how it works..first - last second best- second worst..etc

	24-06-2002 17:26									#34
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Check out
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=2683&

for more details

RAH

	24-06-2002 18:06									#35
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thanks rah, that is a great read ....no longer can i play this game for pure enjoyment...now i need tables for Revolutions, beaker costs, combat analysis etc....wheres all the fun gone

jeeze, it must be the random luck via huts and land

	24-06-2002 18:15									#36
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Don't even bother learning that thread. Just remember for you to keep playing purple and stay supreme, then you will never have a research penalty.

But what i'm trying to figure out is how this makes white a disadvantage. (except maybe on the second tech and even that is questionable), there are too many combos after that. Huts, land, and luck will play more of role.

If the play is right, white may even be the key civ.

Want to try to explain your thinking markus?

RAH

	24-06-2002 18:37									#37
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while all that technical stuff is great , i find the numbers grotesque at best, and i like math...but its too much math for a game

i thought being supreme and purple were bad? or is it pathetic and purple.....see you have me all confused..now i have to reread that thread again

	24-06-2002 18:48									#38
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Gee its not even 7a.m. where you are. Don't tell me you've already started drinking.

RAH

	24-06-2002 19:08									#39
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i should have already left for work by now...the damm muffler fell off the car for my carpool...they are running late lol

	24-06-2002 19:13									#40
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Gee, a few more mufflers and you can make deity.

RAH

	24-06-2002 19:19									#41
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bah.....deity is years away....but the years are getting shorter and shorter...

and you should talk... +1

we all know your post count is all about staying ahead of me

but my carpool will be here in 3 min so i should go

spam on....and i will catch you on the flip side

	25-06-2002 00:07									#42
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quote: Originally posted by rah Don't even bother learning that thread. Just remember for you to keep playing purple and stay supreme, then you will never have a research penalty. But what i'm trying to figure out is how this makes white a disadvantage. (except maybe on the second tech and even that is questionable), there are too many combos after that. Huts, land, and luck will play more of role. If the play is right, white may even be the key civ. Want to try to explain your thinking markus? RAH

Well i really don't think it matters. If you playing 2x 5 -20 beakers more for a tech here or there won't make much of a dif. Are you sure white can be a key civ? I thought order of colors played in here.. White can never be a key civ.. blue can be a keyciv for white and green

	25-06-2002 00:36									#43
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If you're white and pathetic, you're the key civ. But keep in mind all these calculations were done in SP. Not sure if it holds in MP even though there is no reason to believe it wouldn't.

Besides it is easy to manipulate in SP when you can gift techs. It's a heck of a lot harder to do in MP with ratings changings so quickly early in the game and not being able to trade or gift.

RAH

	25-06-2002 00:49									#44
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quote: Originally posted by rah If you're white and pathetic, you're the key civ. But keep in mind all these calculations were done in SP. Not sure if it holds in MP even though there is no reason to believe it wouldn't. Besides it is easy to manipulate in SP when you can gift techs. It's a heck of a lot harder to do in MP with ratings changings so quickly early in the game and not being able to trade or gift. RAH

Things only update on change years.

	25-06-2002 00:57									#45
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Still, the power of this knowledge is in the manipulation of it. Specifically in OCC games. You gift the Techs to the key civ to lower your own research. No one is gifting techs in MP. You might be able to influence your power ranking to make yourself the key civ, but I don't think that's easy to do, unless you're purple and you just stay supreme. So I really don't see this is having as practical usage in an MP game. And as you stated, the +- 20 beakers isn't likely to make that much difference in a 2x game. In OCC or turn record attempts it makes sense to try to use it.

RAH

	25-06-2002 01:11									#46
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quote: Originally posted by rah Still, the power of this knowledge is in the manipulation of it. Specifically in OCC games. You gift the Techs to the key civ to lower your own research. No one is gifting techs in MP. You might be able to influence your power ranking to make yourself the key civ, but I don't think that's easy to do, unless you're purple and you just stay supreme. So I really don't see this is having as practical usage in an MP game. And as you stated, the +- 20 beakers isn't likely to make that much difference in a 2x game. In OCC or turn record attempts it makes sense to try to use it. RAH

Well often times it means you have to wait 4 more turns to go into monarchy or republic.

	25-06-2002 01:47									#47
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It's easy to beaker max your cities trying to eek out an odeo year, (and easy to calculate), I doubt this would be as easy to manipulate and as quantifiable. And early in the game, I don't think the swings are that pronounced. (I mean have you ever taken more than 10 beakers to make your first tech)

RAH