21-06-2002 13:45									#1
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I'm playing a few single player games again of SMAX, and I keep getting to the point where I need to build from scratch many new bases, around the mid point of the game.

This is the point where you have about 10+ things to build, inc defences and formers and new coloneis and units and special projects and etc etc.

So I'm woundering, what order do they build?

Currently I tend to do

Former
Defender
Recycleing tanks
New Colony
Childerns Crache
Rec Commens
Network Node
Energy Bank

	21-06-2002 14:51									#2
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This really depends on the difficulty level, your social engineering choices, native lifeform abundance and current diplomatic relations.

On higher difficulty levels and with a decent police rating it would probably be better to build a defensive unit to keep the population content. If the base isn't in any particular danger make sure the defender doesn't cost too much because it will take ages to build it. Or a better option would be to build the garrison units at one of your main bases while the new base builds rec commons or recycling tanks depending on the difficulty level.

As for formers, have your main bases build some clean formers so that the new bases can develop their infrastructure quicker.

Energy banks and network nodes aren't a high priority in a new base because they generally don't produce much energy so the returns are low.

In summary: build clean formers, colony pods and defenders at your main bases. Build recycling tanks on lower difficulty levels and rec commons on higher difficulties. Then anything you want.

Sorry if this is a bit rambling but i should be revising for an exam! Anyway i suggest you read some posts by the resident strategic genius - Vel.

Hope this helps!

	21-06-2002 15:34									#3
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I agree that Vel is the master to which we must all bow down

Playing Gaians on Trascend level, I would always build recycling tank first, and former second, leaving defenders til later (unless obviously under threat).

I think childrens creche far more important than rec. commons, which only becomes useful when base goes above size 1.

	21-06-2002 16:40									#4
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Everyone is forgetting the most important things to build: crawlers, crawlers and crawlers!

quote: I think childrens creche far more important than rec. commons, which only becomes useful when base goes above size 1.

Well, I don't know, perhaps my bases grow superfast, but by the time I would have built a Children's Creche, Rec Tanks and former, I would already be at size 2 a long long time.

	22-06-2002 10:57									#5
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fluffy, I think one of the strengths of Gaia is to have the formers available right from the beginning. Esp. since you'll build a scout+colony pod faster than the base grows to size 2 unless you have a 2-food 1-mineral tile.
Apart of that, I try to get colony pods out as quickly as possible. A new base is more productive than a rec tank. I'll try to get rec tanks before I start on a SP. Quite early on, I also try to get a network node, esp if I got to Virtual World, and energy bank. My sequence early in the game is (single player only):
- Former
- Scout
- Colony pod
- Rec tank
- Colony pod
- Secret project (if sensible), otherwise network node.

	22-06-2002 15:35									#6
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quote: Everyone is forgetting the most important things to build: crawlers, crawlers and crawlers!

How does this apply to a new base? Is this one of those 'crawl all your nutrients and turn citizens to specialist' things?

	22-06-2002 15:56									#7
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quote: How does this apply to a new base? Is this one of those 'crawl all your nutrients and turn citizens to specialist' things?

Not really/necessarily. As Vel said in his strategy guide, you can use crawlers for anything you want. Only not using them is a mistake. Crawl nuts -> feed specialists. Crawl mins-> build faster. Crawl energy -> research faster/rush buy. If you have space for a crawler in you empire, build it (unless looking for a challenge).

	22-06-2002 16:10									#8
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In a new base? Seems kinda wasteful to me.

	22-06-2002 16:16									#9
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High Whiny voice-

Crawlers do this Crawlers do that you cant win without crawlers.

BAH. One day I am going to declare vendetta agonast someone who uses cwalers and KILL EVERYSINGLE ONE.

	22-06-2002 16:58									#10
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quote: BAH. One day I am going to declare vendetta agonast someone who uses cwalers and KILL EVERYSINGLE ONE.

Hope you mean in MP. You'll rarely find an AI with crawlers and if you do, it's no problem to kill the single one. There is an interesting strategy (by Vel, again) to surround your island with crawlers. Then the enemy has no chance to land.

low soothing voice

Against the AI it's perfectly possible to win without crawlers.

	22-06-2002 18:12									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Phil_de_geezer In a new base? Seems kinda wasteful to me.

How so? Every new crawler gives you another 2 extra minerals (assuming crawling forest). It's a self-reinforcing effect, so the next crawler can be build faster. In no time all your bases will produce 16 mins, and then you can start building up all the other infrastructure besides the early rec tank and commons.

Of course you must have a lot of improved terrain to do this, so in my first few bases I usually build 2 instead of 1 formers.

	25-06-2002 06:02									#12
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quote: Originally posted by M@ni@c How so? Every new crawler gives you another 2 extra minerals (assuming crawling forest). It's a self-reinforcing effect, so the next crawler can be build faster. In no time all your bases will produce 16 mins, and then you can start building up all the other infrastructure besides the early rec tank and commons. Of course you must have a lot of improved terrain to do this, so in my first few bases I usually build 2 instead of 1 formers.

Yep, it's true. And if you are able it goes even faster having your established bases build crawlers for your new bases. In fact I tend to build all units assigned to a new base elsewhere when my economy is humming, even to the extent of rushing a facility every turn to bring the new base up to speed. Of course it does take quite a bit of time to get your terraforming in, though I can usually keep up to speed with two formers per base planting forest. When I am in mid-game, I pre-form all of my new bases, sometimes completely and sometimes 3 tiles just to get them going.

Crawlers are one of the most effective games within the larger game we love. They are like investing your money. You build a crawler for 30 mins. If it produces 1 FOP per turn your investment will be repaid in 30 years, if it produces 2 FOP, 15 years etc. The cool thing is that you can always cash the crawler back in for minerals, and for full value against an SP or a prototype. The power of compound interest is huge in a game on this time scale, and all the more so when restrictions are lifted and your crawlers are pulling in 4-6 FOP (or even more).

As for the original question, it gets a big pat SMAC "it depends" answer. Which faction, what world size, what type of research is enabled, what difficulty level, which factions are playing, and what has happened thus far in the game will all have a bearing on the decision. For my part, once a base is producing decent minerals (via crawlers usually) and assuming that drones are not yet (or no longer) an issue, I like to build a recycling tank, especially early in the game where every nutrient and energy is hard to come by. Another added bonus is that the Rec Tank costs no energy for upkeep later.

	25-06-2002 11:19									#13
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Scouts and CP's
Formers and CP's
Recycle Centers and Formers and CP's

At some point you may want to build Rec Comms (so you can work more tiles) as your terraforming expands beyond 1 or 2 tiles per base or if you are going to want to run FM soon or because b-drones are appearing.

I try to minimize military production at the beginning since the fewer scouts you build/support, the more formers you can build/support. I especially don't want to have units sitting in bases that aren't at least doing police duty. Of course if you are green and get free (and independent) native life, the more the merrier.

Take advantage of rivers and build solars - yes they take forever and only give you 1 or 2, but they're important (even if you later replace those 2-1-1 or 2-1-2 farm-solar tiles with forests) to keep the energy up. That's what the extra formers are doing - for sure better than an unneeded garrison.

I try to build a Command center somewhere with a decent potential for min production (preferably also with a monolith nearby) and build as many of the military units and probes there as possible.

As has been said, build as many crawlers as you can use. At this point, you could have a crawler or two producing from a forest (or other goodie) near a new base site and rehome it to the new base when you open it to give it a quick start. Similarly, an advance former (and other stuff too, especially if you are Yang or otherwise in Police State) can be rehomed there right away to spread the support around.

Another good investment at the beginning is in a Sea Former, which you can use to produce from aquatic specials. Five nuts trawled in can balance out a lot of forest tiles or boost your growth considerably. Yes, they are expensive at the beginning, but as long as an IoD doesn't get them, they pay off reasonably quickly and those kelp beds spread around and clear fungus for you just like the forest does.

At some point you have to ante up for research facilities and energy banks, unless you plan to steal everything from someone else. These can be specialized at first in bases with good energy production to optimize the investment.

If you are doing hard core FM, it would be good to try for the VW which would make your first two builds Rec Comms and Net Nodes (with the free holo), with possibly Recycling tanks in between if the base's nuts to mins ratio (or your cash supply) allowed it.

	25-06-2002 19:35									#14
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Hey guys! One of my *favorite* subjects is possible build orders, becuase in terms of creating turn advantage, there are really only two ways to do it (well three, but more on that another day.... ). The first is through creative and effective terraforming, and the second is in how you go about structuring your build orders.

As has been pointed out, Crawlers are pretty amazing pieces of work. 30 Minerals to build a "vanilla" crawler, and it can be put to work harvesting one of the game's FOP's for you. Pre-Restriction Lifting, the best you can expect is 2 Mins, Energy, or Nutrients (non-bonus tile), and in the early game--or in the case of a newly formed base with no infrastructure--you'll prolly be vastly more interested in mineral counts than anything else. Thus, if you place your Crawler well, you can "get back" your investment on that Crawler in fifteen turns. After that, the base sees a net mineral gain.

The implications of this are huge!

Consider the Rec Tanks....now, mind you it's been a while since I've looked at the particulars, but IIRC a Rec Tank costs you 60 Minerals and generates 3 FOP's a turn with no upkeep. Payback time, then, is 20 turns on a Rec. Tank. Not bad, but not as good as a well-placed Crawler.

To give you an example of the power of building Crawlers first at a newly founded base, but to avoid the math (which I despise, and frankly am not particularly adept at--especially since I am presently without all the building costs etc!), let me just say this: Because you know the production values of all the workable terrain tiles in your new base's radius, and because you can calculate the base's growth rate and productive values, it is possible to calculate the total mineral value of all the infrastructure you wish to build AT the base, and then, based on the rate of growth, figure out how many turns it'll take you to do all that.

I can promise you that if you start out building crawlers, sure, the base that rushes right into infrastructure builds will take a smallish early lead, but the moment that first crawler hits the field, the gap will begin to close, and very quickly, the size 2-3 base with 20+ mins of production will race past the size 2-3 base with 6-8 mins of production, and get the infrastructure up significantly more quickly.

Social Engineering plays a big role too! If you get those ten free minerals for a new base founding, that's as good as money in the bank, and represents a cheap rush of the first build there (and potentially every build there, if you overpay). So....how to best put it to use?

In almost every case, I'll rush a former at a base first (cos usually I do all my expanding and new base building in the early game when I NEED lots of formers, and in fact, I have never played a game where I couldn't find more stuff for my formers to do!....no such thing as too many formers!). After that, unless I'm currently at war, I'll build crawlers, augmenting that by building crawlers from another, more established base nearby, if possible. The goal is to get the new base's mineral counts as high as the eco-damage threshold will currently allow (or higher, if you're looking to immunize yourself), before the new base starts building anything in the way of infrastructure.

So....my build order for bases built after gaining the ability to manufacture crawlers would be: Former, Crawler (*X--whatever my target mineral count might be), Rec. Tanks, "The Rest") (with some other base sending a token scout as a guard).

-=Vel=-

Last edited by Velociryx on 25-06-2002 at 19:41

	26-06-2002 08:47									#15
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Simply because I like playing Devils Advocate lets look a bit more at the decision of crawler vs. recycle tanks. Let first off make the assumption that were talking a 0 support rating (i.e. free 10 mins at the base site).


First build is critical. Most times your base will be bringing in 2 mins as you likely will be having your first worker on a 2 nutrient square (likely a rolling rainy). If you go crawler first you gain a free 10 mins and in order to complete the build you need wait 10 full turns or spend 60 credits in order to get (assuming industry at 0) the crawler.

Now for a Recycle tank min cost I beleive is 40 mins, but as rush build costs for facs is generally cheaper than units you can rush a rec tank at the same cost as a crawler (i.e. 60 ecs) or you could choose to wait it out for a number more turns of production queue time than the crawler above.

The real point tho' is in terms of payback. IF and only IF you are in a rush buy bonanza (And if you have the credits you should always be spending them unless savings for a SE change or a subversion run) then recycle tanks are a better immediate investment as 3 FOP's are gained vs. the 2 of a crawler. OTOH the cash in value of the crawler needs to be considered but more than likely it is a ways down the game as a consequence is not as valuable as immediate now resources (FOPS) (Think of it as a Kind of discounted cash flow wherein in immediate resources are much more valuable than future valued resources)

I digress tho'. In most cases a crawler is a wise first investment for those bases in the middle game as you'll likely have formers already doing tforming for your new bases, the case can however be made that given the cash (i.e. say your Morgan in FM) a rec tank can be considered as good if not a better first build choice.

OTOH if you have already hit b-drone limts causing the first worker to be a drone then a rec commons is the logical first build and rushed at the same 60 ecs. as the FOP's gained from this approach allow say on average 4 FOP's

All in all my advice is first builds should always look to get as many early FOPS as possible for the best price. And although I didn't specifically address it the FOP's inthe early game of particualr improtance is making sure you have at least 1 (2) nutrient square and then an emphasis on minerals. Energy is always welcome but the first two are to my mind critical.

Long answer it all depends

Og

Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe on 27-06-2002 at 01:35

	26-06-2002 10:57									#16
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Another point in favor of the recycling tank is the fact that it can significantly increase your growth rate, especially in the early game. The extra turns of production that you receive from workers hurried into production via that extra nut have to be factored in. More often than not an extra worker in the early game will be pulling in 4 FOP from a forest, which is good compared to the 2 FOP you typically can get from a crawler. Of course you could always crawl two nuts with one of those crawlers and get that extra worker going that much faster. None of this matters all that much if the extra worker is a drone that you can't handle of course, which is why the rec commons figure so prominently in the discussion. I tend to prefer going the mineral route and building SPs to help me with this, especially the HGP and the VW. You can relegate your more advanced bases to build SPs while your new bases concentrate on getting their infrastructure into place, and once the SPs are finished every base will benefit.

	26-06-2002 11:28									#17
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Another subversive idea: rush-buying units such as crawlers usually is a waste of energy, because you get more min/energy when you're buying infrastructure. But you can re-home crawlers. So, build crawlers from a base which has its productivity already set up.

	26-06-2002 15:54									#18
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quote: How so?

In the mid-game (as this thread is about) i think it's better to build base facilities because that is the only way you can recieve the benefit from them. All other things like formers, crawlers and defensive units could be built elsewhere and moved in. You can't move base facilities around.

Plus, it is a lot quicker to build crawlers in your established bases than your new ones, which means you get the benefit from them sooner.