21-06-2002 18:25									#1
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I forgot about this. My spying is really bad. I have a ton of spies on esp and nothing is ever gained. Do I need to hide them first?

	21-06-2002 19:47									#2
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No, I always just put mine right to esp and seldom have any problems.

	21-06-2002 20:03									#3
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Is ten spies a sufficient number?

	21-06-2002 21:38									#4
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Depends on your spy bonuses and theirs. I often take telepathic and +10 spy. I also research all the spy techs, and seldom start trying to steal until I have Cyber and stealth suit.

I only use 4 spies but focus on races like the humans first! If I start losing a bunch of spies I will usually stop trying and go for somebody weaker.

	21-06-2002 23:56									#5
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oh,

I always play with the human portrait. That pretty much takes them out of the mix, right?

Plus sound like you pick spying traits. I stay pretty nuetral and had been picking the spy bonuses. Lately, because of nothing gain, I've been avoiding them.

I do like it when I get Drax, he kills a lot of enemy spies.

	22-06-2002 01:00									#6
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Humans IIRC are a Democracy, which inhibits spying quite considerably. Try playing with a Dictatorship race. Plus the humans are just weak and pretty damn ****....

	23-06-2002 14:06									#7
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I tend not to spy on some other race unless I am at war with them, or unless I have superior computer and spying techs.

	23-06-2002 22:48									#8
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I used to ignore spying, except to stack them up for defence. It can take a ton of agents to keep things going. You also need to check to see if they have anything to steal. If I am in a big hole for tech and at Impossible I usually am, I put a planet on cranking out spies non stop and put them half for me and half for them. It can takes dozens to steal if they are trying to stop you and have some spy bonuses. Being at war is not much of a consideration as at Impossible you are at war most of the time with somebody. There seems to be a limit at around 63 on defense and much lower for agents. Once I hit it, I stop making spies except for replacements. I do not want them to steal from me if I have anything they do not. I often take research that helps spying and when I use a race that has +spying, it is criminal how easy it is to steal.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 05-07-2002 at 03:15

	23-06-2002 23:20									#9
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I spy all the time, but I mostly let the victims rotate, so as to not provoke a war... unless I want that, of course. Tip: you can get away with much more spying versus repulsives than others. The AI doesn't seem as intent on freaking out on you over spying if it can't complain.

	24-06-2002 00:45									#10
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Moom, what is the game settings? I ask as it seems to me that in a solo game, you are at war from mid game on regardless. Early game gets into wars soon, just not with everyone (Impossible levels). The human looks so weak to the AI at the start and by mid game, they are already upset as you have had to do some battles. Unless you are charismatic. They make demands and you either say no and make enemies or give away the game.

I forgot to mention that I am such a knuklehead, that when they steal from me, I declare war ASAP. As soon as I am in a postion to do any damage, got to have my revenge. The bad news is the AI will not note that and stop stealing, so you have to deal with them all sooner or later.

	24-06-2002 02:36									#11
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Hmmm... recall, vmxa, that we seem to differ in play. I am a strong proponent of an early fleet of Potemkin hulls, so the AI is quite tolerant of my little spying exercises, even on Imp.

And I have never gone to war over them stealing anything from me - I go to war when I'm ready to crush.

Anyhow, this is another benefit of a strong fleet - you can easily pull in a lot of tech via spying if you have it. Rotate victims and concentrate especially on repulsives.

Well, be opportunistic, of course. If you get contact with the humans via a universe-spanning wormhole on turn five, by all means steal all they got even if it means war

	24-06-2002 05:46									#12
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Yeah, I was just curious to see if what I have been running into was the norm or not. True, if you have been looked at as strong that helps. I am never strong until at least around turn 90 or so and then not as strongs as the leader. At Prewarp, I mean. Funny thing is I just stumbled on a race and played it, it has repulsive and I stayed out of war for a long time??? It is a Uni,Aqua and I have been able to steal like crazy without repercusions, go figure. The Meks are by far the largest and got to Orion before me. Lucky for me they did not get X-armor. I have yet to confront them, but I have dropped two races and am working on a third. I am the largest by pop, not systems. My fleet is growing fast with disrupter on BB's, so I am in good shape and have raced up for Star gates to protect any attacks. I think I smell blood in the water.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 05-07-2002 at 03:19

	02-07-2002 18:57									#13
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I believe the more spies you have the less chance of sucsess you have. More spies mean more chance of getting caught. I ususally have only two or maybe 3 spies per civ and have them on espionage then when nothin left or at war to sabotage. IT's great when you destroy thier battlestations.

Davor

	02-07-2002 22:03									#14
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Well I submit that if you are not creative you need to start stealing and war is unavoidable anyway. If you are already at war then it has no down side, except the cost. Anyway I ran some test and it seems straight forward, more spies defending means reduced success for the bad guys. Saving each turn waiting for a hit, they finally get a steal. I reload and the steal still occurs nearly always. Reload and move some spies back from some race and add to defence and boom, no steal. Get to 63 on defence and they do not get any steals/sab or anything. This may not be 100%, but I have yet to have a problem once I get to 63.

	02-07-2002 23:00									#15
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Vmxa1,

Since new spies always go to defense, If you have 63 already, where does the new spy go?

	03-07-2002 02:23									#16
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I wish I knew. I ran into it a few times when I was carelss, but I do not know where they went. I did not have an exact count on the agents in the field, so I can not say they went there or were just lost (my guess is lost). I try to move a few before hand, but if you queue up all spies on a strong planet after a build, you can get a number made in one turn. It is tricky. I will have to try to catch it.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 05-07-2002 at 03:27

	03-07-2002 07:11									#17
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quote: Originally posted by RPMisCOOL Vmxa1, Since new spies always go to defense, If you have 63 already, where does the new spy go?

Ok I ran it through and spies just disappear after 63. I had one on some race, just to see if they would go there, but nope. I make new ones and the counts stay the same. That is what I expected.

	03-07-2002 10:14									#18
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quote: Originally posted by RPMisCOOL Is ten spies a sufficient number?

Ok, my take is that if you are creative, you need defenders and maybe some for sabatoge. I tend to not use agents if creative.
Since I am not creative much these days, I tend to drop spies on whomever I am at war with as long as they have tech I want. I will just keep one planet cranking them out non stop in between builds. 2 for me 1 for you kind of deal. I do not care how many as by the time I have lots of them, I can afford lots of them. The only time I used them to blow a star base is at the very begining of the war and only the first one. That is not a recommendation or anything as I have not tested this aspect.
So to answer your question 10 is not too many as long as you do not cripple you industry to get them. I have not counted them, but you can go back to the log I posted and see. I would guess that I have only a few agents by turn 150 or so. That is not real expensive. It will depend on your spy bonus and the AI's. Once I took +20 spy bonus and got all the boost, so I stole everything in sight with few spies.

	03-07-2002 14:38									#19
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Unless I shoot for an early victoy, I crank out spies like there was no tomorrow. In end-game, I'm quite happy to have 63 spies on every player in the game.

Even earlier, I have as many as I can at home - never less than 30, or so, as I build up - and another 30+ rowing crew that rotates between victims. You get a much better pay-off when you hit them suddenly. I estimate between 15% and 30% of my total tech in every long game comes from spies.

Not that spies are even half as useful in Moo2 as they were in Moo. They gutted the whole concept somewhere along the line.

	03-07-2002 15:24									#20
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One thing I've noticed about spying is that I can never seem to steal anything once we've gone to war (his declaration usually - can't imagine why ).
Beforehand I can seem to grab a tech every few turns (maybe 3 total over about 10 turns) before they declare war - afterwards - nothing.

Never really used sabotage as I figure I'll get their planets soon anyway so why take something away from myself.
[Ok, that may have been a little too arrogant. Don't tell the Psilons I said it ]

	03-07-2002 20:55									#21
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Hey, sometimes I get that you were framed message. Is that a random event or is there some way to make it happen, that is, get two AIs pissed at each other.

	03-07-2002 20:59									#22
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Moom, that is roughly what I currently do. I just do not go all the way like you. I will get 63 for me, but stop around 30-40 for them. I have run into times were I am not allow to add more to themand not got over the 40's? Anyway I only once had three races under spies at the same time. I am not saying it is wrong, just more work than I am willing to do. By this time I am taking planets as fast as I want to anyway and have likely got to the adv techs, so I am only filling in holes.
Rav, I would not sabatoge either, but it can be fun to have a tele then blow up their star base and waltz in. This can be done on the first time you start the game. Make a spy first thing and as soon as you make contact drop the spy on them. Boom one race out and you now have a second HW.
Spying is much harder in Moo2. BTW I get steals when at war, you just need lots of spies as they will build up defences. You may hit a lull, but soon I will start getting tech. I should say if they have any to get. You need to check to see if they have anything to get at that point. I may get as much from conquest as stealing once the all out push starts, where I am gobbling up planets non stop.

	05-07-2002 03:48									#23
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quote: Originally posted by RPMisCOOL Hey, sometimes I get that you were framed message. Is that a random event or is there some way to make it happen, that is, get two AIs pissed at each other.

It is not random, in the sense tha it could happen at anytime with out any stimulus. It requires a few things be in place, primarily spy attributes and technology. Then you have a percentage chance of doing it. I had a few shoots with a super Darlok race, normally never do it.

	12-07-2002 01:01									#24
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So does something special happen, like it asks you if you want to frame a player? or is it auto?

	12-07-2002 02:19									#25
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No the choice is made for you. The past few days I have been trying a super spy race and I got lots of frames on others. It never asked me. It even frames races I was not at war with at the time. It tended to frame some one I was at war with, when I was at war with more than one race.

PS
Moo1 will ask you for those who forgot. It gives you two to choose from.

	12-07-2002 15:35									#26
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Framing occurs when the spyer has a huge spying advantage - in spy tech or number of spies - over the spyee. You can reduce frames against yourself - and on impossible, most any frames in the game will be against you - by either giving spy tech to the victim (a risky proposition, all right...) or by spying on the party you belive is responsible for the frames (darloks) - the AI will move home a lot of spies to defend, so the chances of successful frames are lowered.

Not that this is any long-term substitute for simply wiping out the darloks.

	12-07-2002 19:42									#27
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Hmmm. With the Darlock being a fearsome opponent, I wonder why we don't get picks like them? What makes them so bad?

	12-07-2002 21:33									#28
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When I was playing the super spy race I took the Darloks picture so they would not be in the game.
I could not bring myself to give away spy tech, I tought about it, but just could not do it.
I don't think the Darloks are all that tough to play against, it is just that they have spies every where and have traits to make spying better.

	12-07-2002 23:20									#29
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Yeah, but everyone here seems to think that they are the first that you need to take out...if possible. That makes me think that they can be a pain.

	12-07-2002 23:41									#30
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First, they frame the bejeezus out of ya. And if you stop that, it will take a heavy toll on your own spying efforts. Second, those stealthy ships really are a royal pain in the posterioir should you ever be unfortunate to engage in a drawn-out war against them.