22-06-2002 02:04									#1
	Edicts instead of government types Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I would like it if you could customize your government type while playing the game. You would just choose an official name for your government, for example, "Communism", and then use edicts to define what your government really is. This edicts could be things like:

- Religious freedom;
- Ethnic majority privileged;
- Hereditary government;
- Government elected by the elite;
- Government elected by all people;
- Capital punishment;
- Immigration banned;
- Emigration banned;
- Martial law;
- Freedom of the press;

And so on. Every edict would influence the way how buildings work, how many units you can build at what cost, how happy your people are, and so on. You could think of economical edicts as well.

The official government type would determine how other civs regard you. So picking a name would be a diplomatic issue.

	22-06-2002 02:30									#2
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It would be nice to have sliders like EU2 has so you can costumize your government's attitude towards several of these issues. I also hope the 2nd XP will include idea's such as migriation of population based upon economic opportunity, religious/minority tolerence, & political freedom.

	22-06-2002 03:55									#3
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Cool idea, but I think that the name of the government type should be more than a name. For example, both Communism and Democracy might allow the same attitudes on Capitol Punishment, but have different options on Religious Freedom and method of election/appointment of officials.

Basically allow a different range of choices with different governments, with overlap in some catagories.

	22-06-2002 04:34									#4
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"De gemiddelde Oranjeklant heeft het IQ van een half ons plankton en wuift toch wel naar alles wat beweegt."

Why doesn't it surprise me that someone with such a sig wants to see changes in the government?

DeepO

	22-06-2002 06:42									#5
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Okay, does someone want to translate for us 'lazy' language deprived as to what the amusing signature means?

	22-06-2002 06:48									#6
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Interesting concept-- and necessary, too, since there are few (if any) RL nations with governments exactly fitting the mold of even one of the government choices in Civ III.

An idea: Maybe the government type you have is determined by the edicts in effect. (To prevent a switch to Democracy or Communism right away, we could make new edicts available with new advances/cultural milestones/etc.) You could name it whatever you want, of course. You can call it a "Democratic Republic", even if you kill all your opposition regularly and rule by fiat

Out of curiosity, did you get this idea from Tropico? (I vaguely remember edicts being a feature of that game...)

	22-06-2002 15:37									#7
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Jaybe, it's a quote from a well known Dutch standup comedian (well, not really comedian, more of a cabaretier, but I don't know if you know this form of theater art). For the specifics you should ask Fresno, I'm not sure where it came from. I can only guess it was a remark regarding the Dutch royalty and their surroundings, and how people will think anything is allowed and good because they are Royals.

The translation is quite hard, you need additional information. The Netherlands is a monarchy, with democratically elected parliament, which legally have the power. The royals are supposed to have a PR function, but as it is in Great Brittain and in Belgium too, they have more of an influence to society that what's officially in the law. They are called the house of Oranje.

The translation goes like: "the average Oranje-supporter has an IQ of half an ounce of plankton and will cheer at everything that moves" But due to the used intonations it is far more funny than what I just wrote down.
Putting it in a sig would signal that Fresno likes to get rid of the Dutch Monarchy, or least reform it completely. This is further evidenced by calling his place of origin the "Republiek der Nederlanden", republic of the Netherlands. At this moment it still is a monarchy... and as there are only more and more supporters each time a crown prince decides to get married to an Argentinian daugther of a war criminal it is likely that this situation will not change quickly.

DeepO

	24-06-2002 19:25									#8
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I can only guess it was a remark regarding the Dutch royalty and their surroundings, and how people will think anything is allowed and good because they are Royals.

Exactly.

quote: The translation goes like: "the average Oranje-supporter has an IQ of half an ounce of plankton and will cheer at everything that moves" But due to the used intonations it is far more funny than what I just wrote down.

I'm glad you like it.

quote: At this moment it still is a monarchy... and as there are only more and more supporters each time a crown prince decides to get married to an Argentinian daugther of a war criminal it is likely that this situation will not change quickly.

I'm afraid you're right. Actually the reaction of the Dutch regarding the marriage was the reason for Van 't Hek to make his remark.

If it was up to me, the Netherlands would become a 'republiek der Nederlanden.' The royal family members would be allowed to keep their titles, but they wouldn't have any power. Just like other nobles, who lost their power as well. I'd like it if Flanders joined this state too, since the Flemings and the Walloons aren't really fond of eachother, and Dutch and Flemings are the same people. Any interest?

Thanks explaining my sig, I couldn't have done it better.

	24-06-2002 19:31									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Vlad Antlerkov An idea: Maybe the government type you have is determined by the edicts in effect. (To prevent a switch to Democracy or Communism right away, we could make new edicts available with new advances/cultural milestones/etc.) You could name it whatever you want, of course. You can call it a "Democratic Republic", even if you kill all your opposition regularly and rule by fiat

Well, I'd like to keep the naming a diplomatic issue. It was in the past. I'll give an example:
Under Duvalier Haïti was a republic. However, he made the government hereditary. He was one of the worst dictators in the Carribean, but because he was an American vassal (and not a communist), the USA supported him. So although he was a tyrant, his official government type was enough for the USA to decide that he was a "good" leader for Haïti.

quote: Out of curiosity, did you get this idea from Tropico? (I vaguely remember edicts being a feature of that game...)

I had this idea before Tropico was brought out. But I bought Tropico because it seemed a good political simulation at the time. It rather dissapointed me, though. There are too few edicts and too few factions.



Why not add factions as well?

	24-06-2002 19:31									#10
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I like this idea. This could be a way to deal with Anarchy as well. Say you take away "Religious Freedom". Then, there would be a chance some of the people would revolt and cause anarchy in your empire. Or, if you give too many freedoms at once, corruption could become rampant for a time.

This way we could have a communist government that uses money to rush as opposed to the whip.

	24-06-2002 20:06									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Fresno If it was up to me, the Netherlands would become a 'republiek der Nederlanden.' The royal family members would be allowed to keep their titles, but they wouldn't have any power. Just like other nobles, who lost their power as well.

I'm not sure how it works precisely in the Netherlands, but in Belgium, the law dictates that "King" is just a title. The man is allowed to make one speech a year for parliament, and in theory has a veto on signing laws (but when Boudewijn refused to sign the abortus law due to religious conviction, the government put him out of his function for two days). Other than that he has no legal power. However, the court is still very influencial in general matters, and before certain laws are made, certain pacts between political parties are signed, the king is always consulted. It may be a title, but the man has power, and as long as you let them keep their title they will continue to have power.

On the other hand, a king (or queen, in your case) is an extra ace when dealing with international partners. A president is so plain, a royal house has class... I think in Civ they should have given the monarchy a trade benefit over republics, as in real life it is a favorable thing for the economic situation if you have a king to show off.

quote: I'd like it if Flanders joined this state too, since the Flemings and the Walloons aren't really fond of eachother, and Dutch and Flemings are the same people. Any interest?

You mean that you Dutch guys may be allowed to join the Flemish.. nah, Dutch people wouldn't be able to obey our laws
I do like our northern neighbours, and visit Holland quite often. However, living as one country... I don't know. Even if our cultures resemble eachother, the differences become clear real fast. It's always nice to visit Holland, but it is also everytime a relief when I cross the border again to our beloved Belgium. If there is one cliché true about the Dutch it has to be that ALL Dutch people make a lot of noise

DeepO

	25-06-2002 10:41									#12
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO You mean that you Dutch guys may be allowed to join the Flemish..

I second this

quote: cliché true about the Dutch it has to be that ALL Dutch people make a lot of noise

sad but true