23-06-2002 04:50									#1
	What Civ 3/PTW desperately needs. Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Having played Civ 3 a fair bit now, mainly gigantic maps with up to 15 AI, it is very obvious to me that it desparately needs two things.
1) an empire summary page that is concise, easy to read (not crammed with compressed silly faces) and allows you to quickly check the status of cities. In CTP 1 & 2 there was a very good summary which allowed you to see which cities were at risk of disorder.
2) an army based combat system to reduce the number of mouse movements and time taken for each turn. CTP had a very good simple system that reduced 12 units attacking 6 units to one mouse click with an option for a withdrawal if you started to loose.

I find that when you get to 750 AD plus, facing 10 empires still and have 40-50 cities, turns become slow, very tedious and, in fact I am getting sore eyes and a sore right hand from clicking and holding the button on the mouse all the time.

Any thoughts?

	23-06-2002 05:54									#2
	Re: What Civ 3/PTW desperately needs. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by stankarp Having played Civ 3 a fair bit now, mainly gigantic maps with up to 15 AI, it is very obvious to me that it desparately needs two things. 1) an empire summary page that is concise, easy to read (not crammed with compressed silly faces) and allows you to quickly check the status of cities. In CTP 1 & 2 there was a very good summary which allowed you to see which cities were at risk of disorder. 2) an army based combat system to reduce the number of mouse movements and time taken for each turn. CTP had a very good simple system that reduced 12 units attacking 6 units to one mouse click with an option for a withdrawal if you started to loose. I find that when you get to 750 AD plus, facing 10 empires still and have 40-50 cities, turns become slow, very tedious and, in fact I am getting sore eyes and a sore right hand from clicking and holding the button on the mouse all the time. Any thoughts?

hi ,

, the problem is that they never thought that the game would work with 16 civ's , now it does , ....

it can be hard , yes , but after a while you get used to it , ...

there are a number of things that you can do to make it a bit faster , close down the internet connection , shut down programs you dont need , defrag ones in a while , shut down antivirus programs , some are the reason the game goes really slow , ...

that should be a start , ...

have a nice day

	23-06-2002 12:51									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thanks Panag but I think you missed the point of my thread. Its not the time the computer takes to have a move but the time it takes ME to complete a move in a big game.

If I want to stay on top of city disorder or production, it is very tedious and time consuming, either browsing over my whole empire on the map or trying to interprit those faces on the city lists. CTP had a drop down list that showed the vital information in clear black and white figures and, cities in risk of disorder were in red. Very, VERY easy to keep tabs. There was a production list as well that showed what was being produced and turns to complete and you could rush buy from there rather thatn having to go to the individual city display. Again, VERY, VERY EASY. In fact , CTP 1 had a a mini empire display at the bottom and a little box told you at a glance how many cities were in the red for that turn.

The point about combat is that YOU HAVE TO CLICK AND DRAG FOR EVERY SINGLE UNIT BOMBARDING OR HAVING COMBAT. After a while, it is just VERY, VERY TIME CONSUMING and tedious and after a while, not good for my hand or my eyes.

It seems to me that nearly 2 decades of computer games being made, that I am entitled to expect a game to have simple interfaces that are readable and concise and game mechanisms that are streamlined to make playing it INTERESTING AND FUN, NOT TEDIOUS AND A HAZARD TO MY HEALTH. I went to the optomertrist yesterday and he agreed with my assessment that much of the material on computer screens in general is very poorly laid out, with colours used to make things attractive rather than readable. Civ 3 is very poorly constructed in MANY places with very small activation targets to aim for to drop screens etc, light coloured and unecessarily small writing, and then movement is still click and drag instead of pointing to the destination and clicking once. With due respect to Firaxis, despite their warnings and disclaimers, given the propensity for Americans to litigate, I think they are foolish not to consider these issues.

	24-06-2002 05:46									#4
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quote: and then movement is still click and drag instead of pointing to the destination and clicking once.

Press G when you want to move a single unit. Then click where you want it to go. For stack movement, press J.

	24-06-2002 05:47									#5
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And you could always use the numerical pad.

	24-06-2002 07:56									#6
	Re: What Civ 3/PTW desperately needs. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by stankarp . . .an army based combat system to reduce the number of mouse movements and time taken for each turn. CTP had a very good simple system that reduced 12 units attacking 6 units to one mouse click with an option for a withdrawal if you started to loose. I find that when you get to 750 AD plus, facing 10 empires still and have 40-50 cities, turns become slow, very tedious and, in fact I am getting sore eyes and a sore right hand from clicking and holding the button on the mouse all the time. Any thoughts?

YES!!! You are so right.

After Civ 2 came out many of us wanted STACK COMBAT in which STACKS of units fought OTHER stacks, their combat strengths being combined. This one unit attacking another unit is extremely tedious later in the game, and not very realistic. Plus, with stack combat we could fight a battle realtime and give tactical commands. I saw that exact sort of thing first in the old "Kingmaker" game.

We also wanted "rally points", and combining large numbers of units into real armies, not that three unit thing Soren dreamed up and called "an army".

Modern Warfare could be most interesting, but the tedium of moving the units has caused me to give up. I just don't have that much time, nor the inclination for it.

	24-06-2002 10:21									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Thanks coracle for grasping some of the issues

	24-06-2002 10:50									#8
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I never knew that stack combat was much loved...I always thought it was too overpowered.

And if you want to cut down on turn time, why include real time battles? Play CTP if you want that.

What's wrong with a 3 unit army? I rather not have to deal with superstacks of 40+ modern armor, thank you very much.

Modern warfare is very interesting. You know why? Because if you get to use modern units, you most likely have weakling nations surrounding you who have warred from Turn One. Just blow them away with your superiority.

	24-06-2002 10:51									#9
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Could you please clarify "rally point"? I don't see why it's so hard to just send a unit using the go to command off to a rally point manually. Why must this be automatic?

	24-06-2002 14:30									#10
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What I want to see is streamlining to reduce turn time and to make things more realistic. I have seen 1 unit destroy 14 attackers in one turn with this silly 1 v 1 system. On paper it was a 14 to 2 before modicifications (ie 6 to 1) and the attackers were all wiped. Not only that but it took 14 individual movements of the mouse to execute.

	24-06-2002 19:20									#11
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ah, micromanagement, the bane of most tbs games

theres very little that can effectively be done about it. improved stack commands would certainly be nice. i dont want to see stacks attacking ala ctp, i have ctp and can play that if i want that. but ordering a stack of units to attack individually with one order would be nice. i just think that this issue is extremely complicated, with no clear cut solution.

	24-06-2002 20:10									#12
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quote: Originally posted by stankarp What I want to see is streamlining to reduce turn time and to make things more realistic. I have seen 1 unit destroy 14 attackers in one turn with this silly 1 v 1 system. On paper it was a 14 to 2 before modicifications (ie 6 to 1) and the attackers were all wiped. Not only that but it took 14 individual movements of the mouse to execute.

What we have here is... a failure to communicate.

Seriously, Firaxis (as good as they are) has not communicated to us what these "battles" are supposed to represent. They haven't taught us how to percieve them. I understand the appeal of stack combat, ala CTP, it seems more realistic. Perhaps it would be easier for you to swallow the 1 vs. 1 combat if you think of these fights as battles within a battle, rather than battles themselves . You shell an infantry with your arty, You attack an infantry with armour, you attack infantry with calvalry. Think of all these fights as part of one battle. In that sense you are giving tactical orders to your troops within the battle.

The 14 units you describe being destroyed by 1 unit is harder to rationalize, allthough I don't see that often. What were the units?

	24-06-2002 20:29									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by SomeOneElse ah, micromanagement, the bane of most tbs games theres very little that can effectively be done about it. improved stack commands would certainly be nice. i dont want to see stacks attacking ala ctp, i have ctp and can play that if i want that. but ordering a stack of units to attack individually with one order would be nice. i just think that this issue is extremely complicated, with no clear cut solution.

hi ,

, it should go further then CTP , far more advanced , ...

have a nice day

	24-06-2002 20:35									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm all for making unit commands simpler. You should be able to "Go To" a ship from land. You should be able to order a stack of units to attack a city or tile. Then if you win, the remaining ones either wait for new orders or enter your conquered city.

I would also like better advisor screens.

Foriegn Advisor... make it > 8 friendly. Maybe give some insight as to what the other civs want and who's on the verge of fighting. This is where the Gov type should be shown.

Military Advisor... Its fine the way it is.

Trade Advisor... Show me what other civs have in the way of excess resources, luxuries, and even cash. Also give some info as to how much the Germans want for their Spices.

Science Advisor... Tech tree is almost fine. Hovering should tell you what that tech allows you to build. The pictures aren't all that big. Also, the image for the tech shouldn't be there, sometimes I think it represents something I can build.

Culture Advisor... Should tell you which of your cities have low culture. Should tell you what foreign cities might flip sometime soon (and to build culture there to encourage the flip).

Domestic Advisor... Almost fine. Should be able to sort by every column on the screen. Should list cities in disorder in red, cities close to disorder (the next pop point will put it into disorder) in yellow or some easily distinguished color , and safe cities in black. Cities with or without aqueducts and hospitals should be designated somehow.

Obviously most of this should only be available with an embassy.

	24-06-2002 21:21									#15
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quote: Originally posted by dunk999 Military Advisor... Its fine the way it is.

After you plant a spy, yes. It would be nice to have some sort of additional info before espionage.

quote: Domestic Advisor... Almost fine. Should be able to sort by every column on the screen.

Calling Firaxis... it is 2002. Information management is the key to success in business, in research, and on the battlefield. I hate to sound like a broken record but in CTP you could go into empire managment and sort all of you cities by any statistic: population, production, happiness, commerce, pollution. This needs fixing.

	24-06-2002 21:35									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Calling Firaxis... it is 2002. Information management is the key to success in business, in research, and on the battlefield. I hate to sound like a broken record but in CTP you could go into empire managment and sort all of you cities by any statistic: population, production, happiness, commerce, pollution. This needs fixing.

Almost all of the information is available, but it is counter-intuitive to get to. I shouldn't have to contact another civ to review the agreements I have with them.

That's something I forgot. The Foreing Advisor should display all of your current agreements with turns left showing.

	24-06-2002 22:00									#17
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quote: [SIZE=1] If I want to stay on top of city disorder or production, it is very tedious and time consuming, either browsing over my whole empire on the map or trying to interprit those faces on the city lists.

There are a few graphic wich make this task somewhat easier, at least on the eyes ( IIRC it's called shieldedheads or something lijke that )

	24-06-2002 22:53									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by dunk999 The Foreing Advisor should display all of your current agreements with turns left showing.

I don't remember the source, but I read somewhere that this will be in PTW.

	24-06-2002 22:53									#19
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quote: The point about combat is that YOU HAVE TO CLICK AND DRAG FOR EVERY SINGLE UNIT BOMBARDING OR HAVING COMBAT. After a while, it is just VERY, VERY TIME CONSUMING and tedious and after a while, not good for my hand or my eyes.

Theres a super easy solution that you can leave on or just turn it on while you are about to get into a big battle.

Turn all of the unit animation off !!!

Believe me, it works wonders, you can bombard with 20 artillery in 2 seconds.

	24-06-2002 23:11									#20
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quote: Originally posted by ShredZ Theres a super easy solution that you can leave on or just turn it on while you are about to get into a big battle. Turn all of the unit animation off !!! Believe me, it works wonders, you can bombard with 20 artillery in 2 seconds.

hi ,

okay , agreed , but most people like the animations , ....

but , like you pointed out , there is the option to us it or not , .....that should do it , ...



have a nice day

	25-06-2002 00:17									#21
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I would like to have a notice that my city is about to starve or go into civil disorder. Checking for civil disorder is easier than checking for starvation, but both are hard on the eyes, esp. for nearsighted people, like me.

	25-06-2002 01:37									#22
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quote: Originally posted by kring I would like to have a notice that my city is about to starve or go into civil disorder. Checking for civil disorder is easier than checking for starvation, but both are hard on the eyes, esp. for nearsighted people, like me.

hi ,

, , no joking , try to get a MAC , it works , ....

it works excellent with a 23 inch flat screen , .....

more pop-up , yeah , souds reasonable , with options to turn it on / off , for the young and not so young players , ...

have a nice day

	25-06-2002 03:46									#23
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quote: Originally posted by kring I would like to have a notice that my city is about to starve or go into civil disorder. Checking for civil disorder is easier than checking for starvation, but both are hard on the eyes, esp. for nearsighted people, like me.

You do know if your cities have negative food production (ie starvation). The city pop number turns red. A civil disorder one is needed, also.

	25-06-2002 04:20									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I know you see the red, but considering if you have a lot of cities, and I typically due by early mid game, you won't see it without going to every city. Also, you can see it by going into the F1 screen and looking for any cities that have -1 excess food. Both of these options don't help the more visually challenged of us.

It would be nice if you got a warning saying cities A, B, and C are not producing enough food, esp. if one or more created an entertainer from someone that was working the fields.

I rarely have civil disorder problems for 2 reasons: one is I let the governor manage happiness (I may go behind him to reassign other workers since the entertainer may be taken from a good square); 2) I have used one of the pop heads mods that allows me at a glance to see how many unhappy people I have and take the preventive measure before the CG needs to.

The reports would be good, you could view them in the F1 screen.

	27-06-2002 01:59									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Carver I understand the appeal of stack combat, ala CTP, it seems more realistic. Perhaps it would be easier for you to swallow the 1 vs. 1 combat if you think of these fights as battles within a battle, rather than battles themselves . You shell an infantry with your arty, You attack an infantry with armour, you attack infantry with calvalry. Think of all these fights as part of one battle. In that sense you are giving tactical orders to your troops within the battle.

I think that this approach would work as long as the units were "power matched." This way the best units would engage each other within each stack (or non-stack) and it would be the same as if the stacks didn't exist. This would allow for economized movement without some of the overpowering effects of stacks. If each unit can kill only one other unit than t stacks wouldn't provide a dramatic advantage.