24-06-2002 14:48									#31
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Good plan. I'm with you.

	24-06-2002 20:23									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX in my genocidial mind i do see the need for a research partner on emperor. as far as we know, we could be on an island with france, they could be our only source of science / whatever. if we find out we're on an island with more people (maybe 2 more civs besides france), i will push for full scale genocide of the french. and may god help them if they try to impeed our colonization. i am greatly in favor of NYE and Sir Ralph's plans. pure brilliance. i'll also admit that it is a long time to wait, but as i said in my math thread, it's the fastest we can get the job done right. we dont want to go in under-armed and get crushed by the froggies... that would be a humiliation for our empire. we must crush the french forces and bend them to our will!

hi ,

, okay , it sounds good , but how are we going to do that , .....

you , poor guy , dont even have barracks , .....

panag > offers half of the banana works as a temporary solution to UberKruX , in return the army guards the banana's for free , ....

have a nice day

	25-06-2002 03:31									#33
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Remember, all those military units can also be used as scouts until you need them to kill our enemies.

Have to take into account the additional time to place the units to kill our foes, of course that falls more under the military statigy than under city production....

Sounds good for now. Just keep from locking in until as late as possible. Things may change at any moment.

	25-06-2002 03:57									#34
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We shouldn't use them as scouts, because then it will take longer to move them to the objective.

	25-06-2002 04:36									#35
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker We shouldn't use them as scouts, because then it will take longer to move them to the objective.

We can use them as scouts if we're cautious. We can have them all arrive in the right spot for D-day if we time the turns just right. We don't need to get them piled up on the border as soon as they're made (since that would alert the french too). We can wait til they are all produced, stack them, and then attack. Remember that we can move the first archers while the rest are being produced. As long as we are careful to give enough turns to relocate the exploring units to stack up with the final D-day unit, we should definitely use them to explore. It won't take any longer.

	25-06-2002 04:55									#36
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Agreed Captain.

If done well, we can perhaps attack from several directions at once. Catching some of their units (aka slaves) outside of the cities. Perhaps even attacking from one side, drawing their military out, then taking their weakly defended cities from the rear.

All is sound strategy. But first we need to know just where our enemy is and what they are doing. Scouting is very important until we can start trading maps.

	25-06-2002 06:05									#37
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I've got to agree with my fellow michigander, GodKing, and Captain. The key to any succesful war is good intelligence (as the Germans found out in WW2, the British knew all of their plans throughout most of the war) and to get that intelligence, we must scout out the territory of the french. Then we can attack from multiple fronts, capturing workers and hopefully a few settlers as well, thus ending french attempts at expansion.

	26-06-2002 01:16									#38
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker We shouldn't use them as scouts, because then it will take longer to move them to the objective.

hi ,

, we could send just a couple to do so , ...

who knows what we could find , ...

have a nice day

	26-06-2002 04:17									#39
	Increase Your PM Length

I have a problem with the plan : once we build the barracks in Apolyton, we have no time to build another unit (whatever it is) until Apolyton reaches size 3, meaning civil disorder.
On the other hand, we have a tremendous advantage over the French : they just built their first settler, and they won't be able to produce one before 17 turns or so (I estimate the settler has been produced 3 turns ago, and Paris needs 20 turns to go from size 1 to size 3).
If we interrupt our barracks to build an archer or spearman and build a settler right after, our settler is ready in 10 turns (1 turn after Apolyton reaches size 3). The French won't have built their second settler by then, meaning we'll be able to settle in the plains south of likely Orleans. It will give us another producing city, which could be extremely useful in the near future.

What do you think ?

	26-06-2002 04:21									#40
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Considering... I'll be back.

	26-06-2002 05:27									#41
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Except if the French have fertile land NW from Paris, just forget what I said. By the time our settler arrives in the plains, he will be 3-4 turns too late on the French settler.
However, it's unlikely the Yanks put a city completely stuck in a jungle (except if their situation is as bad as ours, which I doubt because of their technological advancement, better than the Pinks).
So, I assume the Yank border means the end of the Jungle. We could take advantage of our advance by putting our 3rd city in the good land near the Yanks.

	26-06-2002 08:41									#42
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I have a question:

Does the plan call for a surprise attack, one in which war is official after the first unit attacks...
which will give a great advantage over the French but leave us with a tarnished reputation that the AI always loves to remind us of...and will raise prices in diplomacy,

or declare/provoke war.

	26-06-2002 08:47									#43
	Increase the size of your Attachments

By the time we attack, our enemies won't have very wide borders, so a sneak attack will be rather useless. I think it will be debated in due time, though.

	26-06-2002 09:43									#44
	re Apolyton production Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Spiffor,

OK Poly builds Barracks in 7, grows in 9.

I believe the plan and the consensus calls for a settler after the barracks. We need to build Red City asap. It has already been delayed to complete the barracks first. Any further delay and Red City will not be on line to build reinforcements for the war.

The settler should take 8 turns. there will be a 6 turn period in which Apolyton will be 3 pop and require some action to keep out of disorder.

As suggested in the plan, the 3rd pop could be changed to a natural philosopher (scientist with Newton's) and then we can put research spending to 0 for those 6 turns.

After that, the plan would call for a Spearman to be built first (maybe second) and kept in garrison at Poly until the last archer is completed. That spearman will keep Apolyton out of disorder until it leaves with the last of the 6 archers required at the front for the war.

	26-06-2002 09:48									#45
	Red and Blue City Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I can not emphasize enough that we need as many productive cities as we can get as soon as possible.

We can have 3 productive cities on the Apolyton plains. Red city and Blue city. We must build them soon. They will have low enough corruption (< or = 25%) that they can effeciently build units and settlers. As the need for the military subsides and they have each built a couple of settlers, they can each build a worker to dig themselves out of the jungle. In the meantime Apolyton can grow to 6 with good tiles and they can remain at 3 and pump out units or settlers.

Other cities built further away will be less effecient as settler factories due to higher corruption and be more vulnerable to enemies and Barbs.

Last edited by notyoueither on 26-06-2002 at 09:56

	26-06-2002 13:20									#46
	Re: Red and Blue City Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Other cities built further away will be less effecient as settler factories due to higher corruption and be more vulnerable to enemies and Barbs.

This is true as long as we haven't enough of these corrupt cities. But generally, 95% corrupt cities with at least 2 tiles making 2 food, are darn good settler factories. True, they build settlers every 30 turns only, but 10 of them build a settler every 3 turns. 15 of them - every 2 turns. And so on. And if we REX, we'll quickly have many of them. Our core cities could be fixed on improvements, units and maybe 1-2 early wonders.

EDIT: For food/shield balance purists: True, 1 tile producing 2 food and 1 tile producing 1 food suffices as well.

	26-06-2002 13:34									#47
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Yes, but the core cities have to build the later cities before there are any later cities.

I usually follow the 2 friends theory. As each city builds it's second settler it is switched to develop itself. That gives exponential growth until all land is occupied.

Right now, Red city hasn't even had it's own founding settler built let alone supplied soldiers and settlers for our further expansion.

Blue city, given it's more restricted area might be an ideal settler factory for many more than 2 settlers after the first war.

/Edit. The key is time. Red and Blue will build everything faster due to lower waste. They must be settled first.

	26-06-2002 17:34									#48
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I've seen a lotof talk in this thread about what to do when we've taken the first city (be it Paris or New York). Has anyone yet come up with a contingency plan for if the first wave fails , however unlikely this may be?

Should we sue for peace until we can have a second attack, try to rush units up in ones and two's as they are made? Or are we saying that the start is so bad that the whole game hinges on the first attack being successful?

I'm not trying to be a doom-monger here , i just think we should have a plan B.

	26-06-2002 17:54									#49
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It's pretty unlikely that it fails, but if it fails, nothing is lost. The AI is always willing to make peace after 5-10 turns in the early game and they can't counterattack in this short period of time. We save our spearmen for sure, and the typical AI has no serious attack force in this period of time.

	26-06-2002 18:05									#50
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So if it does fail, where do we retreat to? All the way back to Apolyton, with our tail between our legs? Or consolidate in the mountains until reinforcements can arrive?

	26-06-2002 18:11									#51
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Highly depends on the situation. If we have forces to heal, we may fortify one spear on a mountain outside the French borders and let the archers heal, and the other go halfway back to Apolyton to protect approaching reinforcements. If not (although I never saw this happen), we may just pillage a bit with the spearmen and make peace then. Not the best outcome, but also slows down the French a bit.

Again, we're talking about a situation, I have seen maybe once in 20 cases.

	26-06-2002 18:25									#52
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Thanks. Just wanted to make sure it had been thought about, even though it is unlikely. As someone once said, always state the obvious. That way, you know that everyone is thinking the same obvious

	26-06-2002 19:03									#53
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Good point, I was wondering if anybody was going to bring up the point. After all, assuming we will prevail is first and foremost an assumption. You can quote all sorts of odds, but results are what count in the game. I have seen such attacks fail, and too many assumptions are being made about the French and American forces we would be facing.

Plan B's are always great to have, just in case. And a Plan B devised before it is needed is almost always better than one you have to think up under pressure.

	26-06-2002 21:11									#54
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Hello all.

Q: Why 2 Spearmen for the attack?

I would be in favor instead of either another Archer, or even another Warrior to be used as a rover accompaniment.

I am in favor of attacking France, btw, simply because the approach on mountains is so good.

	26-06-2002 21:23									#55
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Theseus: It was the SMC's request. In mine eyes it's ok, as if we take Paris and continue to attack, we'll have another spear to protect the stack. Btw, I have finetuned my Archer rush approach this way too.

Btw: Barracks are built to save some time. We could build more Warriors first and Barracks later, but we already have lost enough time.

Finally: Glad to see you here!

	26-06-2002 21:28									#56
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quote: Originally posted by mtgillespie I've seen a lotof talk in this thread about what to do when we've taken the first city (be it Paris or New York). Has anyone yet come up with a contingency plan for if the first wave fails , however unlikely this may be? Should we sue for peace until we can have a second attack, try to rush units up in ones and two's as they are made? Or are we saying that the start is so bad that the whole game hinges on the first attack being successful? I'm not trying to be a doom-monger here , i just think we should have a plan B.

in my version of the plan, we would produce 2 more archers as "base offensive defense" and spearman garrisons all around.

the 2 archers, if not needed for defense, could be used to "replenish" the main stack.

	26-06-2002 23:17									#57
	Re: re Apolyton production Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Spiffor, OK Poly builds Barracks in 7, grows in 9. I believe the plan and the consensus calls for a settler after the barracks. We need to build Red City asap. It has already been delayed to complete the barracks first. Any further delay and Red City will not be on line to build reinforcements for the war. The settler should take 8 turns. there will be a 6 turn period in which Apolyton will be 3 pop and require some action to keep out of disorder. As suggested in the plan, the 3rd pop could be changed to a natural philosopher (scientist with Newton's) and then we can put research spending to 0 for those 6 turns. After that, the plan would call for a Spearman to be built first (maybe second) and kept in garrison at Poly until the last archer is completed. That spearman will keep Apolyton out of disorder until it leaves with the last of the 6 archers required at the front for the war.

hi ,

, would it not be smart to let poly grow a bit first , then let them produce settlers , the bigger the city , the faster they build it , and the more money we have , ....

or do we simply dont have the time , ....



have a nice day

	27-06-2002 12:03									#58
	Re: Re: re Apolyton production Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by panag hi , , would it not be smart to let poly grow a bit first , then let them produce settlers , the bigger the city , the faster they build it , and the more money we have , .... or do we simply dont have the time , .... have a nice day

Well, the problem is that we'd need temple, luxuries, units, etc. to keep it out of civil disorder...
Even at size 3 we'll be in trouble once the garrison leaves...

So, for now we don't have time. Otherwise, you do have a point...

	27-06-2002 18:30									#59
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I like the plan, it assumes a short vicious war, which is exactly the kinds of war you need to fight in order to maintain growth in the cities.

	27-06-2002 20:32									#60
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

That is the problem with the plan: it assumes a lot of different things. Assumptions have a bad habit of not being accurate; and in this game, potentially fatal.