24-06-2002 01:24									#1
	Spies Inflate your Upload Space

I was wondering how many of you guys plant spies? When ever I try atleast one or two civ's find them when I try to get them in thier and their attitude goes from graciuos or polite to annoyed. I haven't even tried in my last couple of games because of this.

	24-06-2002 01:37									#2
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Reload if you fail, try again the turn after. The complaints will now start saying you shouldnt reload because you got a bad result...

	24-06-2002 01:43									#3
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quote: Originally posted by delsolsi I was wondering how many of you guys plant spies? When ever I try atleast one or two civ's find them when I try to get them in thier and their attitude goes from graciuos or polite to annoyed. I haven't even tried in my last couple of games because of this.

In the worst case, they catch your spies and take it as a reason to declare war, so I rarely use spies - they´re not cost-effective enough...Also, I don´t like the spy menu, the good old civ2 spy units were better IMO

	24-06-2002 01:46									#4
	Remove this text

The good old Civ2 spies were overpowered.

I'm glad to see spying abstracted into a management style system where you don't see the spies but can call on their services.

That said, I think a few modifications can be made on spying, including lowering the cost of gathering intelligence. I understand the high cost of actual sabotage, but intelligence gathering need to be cheap enough to be used. And from what I gather, most people choose not to use their spy agency to gather intelligence because of the high cost.

I also think the spy agency should be available 2 to 3 techs sooners. It comes too late in the game.

	24-06-2002 01:58									#5
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by dexters The good old Civ2 spies were overpowered.

Yes I agree, but for me they were also more fun as "real" units - it was more "action" (if you can use that word in a TBS game )

I´d like to see a compromise - on the one hand, a "management style system" like we have now to do certain tasks, on the other some units like special agents or commando units which can execute some special ops like sabotage, covered action during a "cold war" etc. They should be not too powerful to avoid the civ2 style "diplo-armies"...

	24-06-2002 02:15									#6
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quote: Originally posted by spy14 Reload if you fail, try again the turn after. The complaints will now start saying you shouldnt reload because you got a bad result...

I don't like playing that way.

	24-06-2002 05:09									#7
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if succesfull there quite usefull...
btw, you can even use as a provocation. let the AI declare war on you. try to have some mpp. this way it can be very usefull

	24-06-2002 07:44									#8
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Espionage with the standard rules is insanely overpriced, and not very effective - unless you want to provoke another civ into declaring war on you so you can conquer them. The AI falls for that one every time.
Exposing an enemy spy is a real waste of time as if there is NO spy there it always causes an incident, which is illogical.

A spy in the enemy capital can tell you about their military. But it's not worth the effort; I can figure out his strength, approximately, in other ways.

Give me back Civ 2 spies, and caravans, instead of the tedious abstractions they've become in Civ 3.

	24-06-2002 08:20									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

God, Caravans? Civ 2 spies?

Coracle, you've just discredited yourself as an objective critic of Civ III. What you're suggesting is a Civ II expansion game, not Civ III, a game that for better or worse, is expected to play differently and introduce new things.

I hated the Caravans in Civ 2. It was a nightmare to move them around in the late game, let alone keep track of all the optimal trade routes. The overpowered spies and the ease with which anyone can deal a blow against the enemy make Soren's much maligned AI look like Deep Blue.

Keep playing Civ II. If your ideal for Civ III is something like Civilization II, it is a step back and most people here would rather not have anything to do with it.

Last edited by dexters on 24-06-2002 at 08:26

	24-06-2002 09:27									#10
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There's pretty much a concensus the spies are NOT costeffective. It's easier to buy the tech than to steal it! You can't plant spies all at once cause one of them is bound to discover you.

	24-06-2002 09:53									#11
	Put an end to popups!

The consensus is there, some people here just have a rather draconian view of how Firaxis should go about fixing it.

I personally want to push for cheaper intelligence gathering -- that means cheaper and more success in planting spies -- but if they want to keep sabotage missions expensive, i'm all for it. those stuff are too easy to exploit if made cheap.

	24-06-2002 10:44									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Everyting about using spies are expensive. Embassies are cheaper, however lemited it is.

	24-06-2002 12:09									#13
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In Civ2 you could buy cities relatively cheap but in Civ3 you need to launch a propaganda campaign that costs a lot and I haven't found it to work. Might only use spies if I can't get the other civ to declare war on me. Otherwise avoid as no real reason for needing them.

	24-06-2002 12:34									#14
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Is there no way we can edit the cost of espionage missions ourselves?

	24-06-2002 13:10									#15
	Re: Spies Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by delsolsi I was wondering how many of you guys plant spies? When ever I try atleast one or two civ's find them when I try to get them in thier and their attitude goes from graciuos or polite to annoyed. I haven't even tried in my last couple of games because of this.

I use spies only when it comes to a close space race, as they are the only safe way of finding how much of the spacecraft the other civ has built so far... I tend to plant them during wars, as they do not lower my already Furious rating then... or am prepared to take the consequences, if the spy gets caught.

But otherwise, I do agree that the mechanics of spying does not appeal to me and I avoid it almost entirely. The spies in Civ2 were very overpowered, that is right, but fun to use... spying in Civ3 is not fun.

I support the idea of lowering the cost of intelligence gathering, while maintaining sabotages expensive. As for propaganda, I do not really know - honestly, I have never tried to get a city using propaganda... as for me, Firaxis could leave this feature out and I would not notice.

	24-06-2002 16:06									#16
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

You guys are forgetting the most important use for them, having F3 tell you exactly what you are going up against before committing to a war, instead of his typical, wildly inaccurate, "I think their military is bigger than ours" advice. This feature is free (except that it can cause a war when you plant him).

	24-06-2002 19:05									#17
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one of my early games, i attempted to plant a spy in germany. i forget why. he was discovered, and bismark the b@stard declared war. soon swarms of panzers decimated my empire, and i learned

only use spies in extreme cases, there are other ways to get similar information for less of a price

	24-06-2002 19:16									#18
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hi ,

a spy is usefull to see the status of the other guy's military , ..

have a nice day

	24-06-2002 19:42									#19
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm You guys are forgetting the most important use for them, having F3 tell you exactly what you are going up against before committing to a war, instead of his typical, wildly inaccurate, "I think their military is bigger than ours" advice. This feature is free (except that it can cause a war when you plant him).

And if you're playing for a space win you need a spy to tell you the enemy's space ship progress (unless you're clear ahead in tech).

Planting a spy in all major civs is a must-do for me, and definently worth the cost. Now, the price of specialized operations (steal tech, troop positions) is rediculous. there is no way I'll pay those prices. Which is a shame beacuse troop postitions would obviously be huge tool.

Incidently, I don't think subs should appear when you steal troops locations. During the cold war no one knew exactly where US subs were located except for a few people on board. The naval commanders assigned the ship an approxamate area of operations and mission, but no one stateside knew their exact location.

	24-06-2002 20:09									#20
	Civ3 Editor Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Mannamagnus Is there no way we can edit the cost of espionage missions ourselves?

Mannamagnus,

Crack open the editor and you can adjust the settings to your taste.

Most of the operations can have their cost lowered by a factor of 10 or so. If I remember correctly, the cost is partly based on what your income is each turn. To use the changed settings, you will need to use the "Load Scenario" option when go to start the game. You should get a warning message that the game settings have been changed.

I found the espionage ridiculuously expensive and the whole setup for it felt like an after thought when the realized the shipping deadline for the game was coming up. The should have kept with the SMAC style and feel...

	24-06-2002 21:07									#21
	Got spare money?

When I first started playing Civ 3, I never used the Embassy feature of stealing tech, or bothered using spies.
At this point where I am more comfortable with most aspects of the game, and especially since I play a couple of level higher then when I started, I find I use Spies quite a bit now.
If I go for a Tech like Democracy, to the exclusion of Gunpowder, I just steal Gunpowder from an enemy. If they just got it recently, and I'm not planning on attacking them anytime soon, it's not as if a stack of 50 Musketmen will appear next turn anyway.
Even if my spy screws up, I can just wait a turn or two and offer something like Printing Press to normalize relations.
In the Modern Age, it is even better. When I am busing industrializing (building Factories in my five top producers) and the AI has similar techs, I know it will begin Wonder Work before it builds a Factory. Plant a spy, do your research, find out where the WOW is being built, and blow it to KC.
If I am going to attack an enemy in the Modern Age (common situation for me ), I always utilize Spies first. If planting it causes a war, no great loss. If successful I can mess them up bad, and use my forces more effectively. I don't know how many times I have found that a city I want turn out to be garrisoned by a single unit. I only need a couple of attacker rather than using a massive stack. Frees up a lot of troops.
I definatly agree that Spies are expensive, but if by that time in the game (if you are a Democracy or Republic) you should have a good cash flow, so it doesn't ever bother me.
What does the fact that by that point also, every AI Civ has switched to Democracy anywho, so the I can never use propaganda.
If you want to see Spies most effective, switch to Communism for a while. Even though Spies are no longer units, Communism still gives "Veteran" Spies.

	24-06-2002 23:13									#22
	Tired of ads?

I'll add my voice to the very large crowd of folks who believe that espionage missions are far too expensive -- I cannot imagine a mission that is worth its typical cost. When I was playing a modded version, I even used the editor to tone the cost down considerably -- still not cost-effective in most situations.

These days (unmodded games) I find the spies useful only for: (1) checking the exact force composition of a rival; and (2) if the space race is close, keeping tabs on a rival's progress. The one exception to the "overpriced" nature of espionage, IMHO, is propaganda. If your target civ is in a more oppressive form of government than you (best is anarchy between gov switches while other civ at war), has an attractive city that is far distant from its capital and shares a common border with yours, and is culturally a light-weight compared to you, propaganda can sometimes take that city you desire without war and without too great a cost. This is a very limited exception however.

Like others, because of the relatively high risks of getting caught planting a spy, I tend to do so when already engaged in hostilities, or into civs with whom I have active trades (on the theory that war is less likely if the civ is getting a luxury or other resource from me).

Catt

Last edited by Catt on 25-06-2002 at 01:19

	25-06-2002 00:33									#23
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I always plant spies, even if I don't use them. I figure that I can always use them later if I need to.

I have modded the costs of the missions down considerably. I haven't really gotten into espionage yet, so I'll probably end up adjusting them again.