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Frank Johnson
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Houston, TX
Jan 1970
time: 23:20
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Well spies are typically late game....
If you allow you opponents to get to them expect trouble.
But really once you have had a line of diplos thrown at you, you just begin to accept it all. Thats how the game is played, in civ2 anyway.
If there were no way to defeat city walls for example, then defenders would always win. Walls provide a 200% bonus, but units typically only attack 100% better than they defend (legions 4/2, armor 10/5 etc)
So even with a tech advantage, it becomes and major pain to attack an city. Once the stalemate develops, in come the diplos and spies, to knock out the infastructure, destroy the economic abilities of the sides, then the attrition starts and the walls start falling, and a big battle emmerges. Diplos and spies offer the only realistic ability for a person to get their tech caught up. I have had 10 techs stolen in a single turn. In the end, it didnt help since he immediately had to fight a war and wasnt able to use any but the war techs to help, while my cities had time to develop the factories, banks, etc....he had no such luxury.
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rah
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Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
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Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Frank Johnson
If there were no way to defeat city walls for example, then defenders would always win. Walls provide a 200% bonus, but units typically only attack 100% better than they defend (legions 4/2, armor 10/5 etc)
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Not really, Vet calvary can be quit effective against even rifles behind walls. Artillary also. I won't even discuss howies, since they come later.
Diplos are annoying but at least they get destroyed when you use them, only move 2 and can only steal from a city once.
That three movement is much tougher to defend against. Even if you build fortresses on rail networks, a spy maybe able to move around it and continue.
Against the AI, it's not really a problem because the AI will seldomly use them effectively and won't use them from directly off ships as much. But against others, they can be too effective.
If you beline towards it, they can come pretty early in the game. (granted it means bypassing a lot of other useful techs, but they can be easily stolen)
RAH
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Frank Johnson
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Houston, TX
Jan 1970
time: 23:20
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Well its the same situation cavalry attacks at 8, riflemen defend at 4.
If they were veteran it would be 12 and 6.
Veteran status always helps the defender more because that bonus affects the "base rating" of the defender, which all the other bonuses, such as walls, terrain, and fortification come in.
Anyway tactics give you both cavalry and apline troops, which defend at 5, so that comparison isn't even fair really. 
Artillery I'll give you, thats one of the first break out offensive techs, but you're still dealing with a 1 move unit, but by time the rails come in and change everything.
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StrategicKingMi
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Best way to defend against them, is not to allow them close to your citys in the first place.
In battles where each player has a different cont, you can do this by destroying any city in range of your cont long before espinage is created and in other areas by bypassing possible targets of destroyers/cruisers that are usually unstacked and searching for transports or double stacked ships.
Or use rules.txt to increase thier cost to like 80 -100 gold which is equivelent to thier value.
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rah
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Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
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Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:20
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quote:
Originally posted by StrategicKingMi
Best way to defend against them, is not to allow them close to your citys in the first place.
In battles where each player has a different cont, you can do this by destroying any city in range of your cont long before espinage is created and in other areas by bypassing possible targets of destroyers/cruisers that are usually unstacked and searching for transports or double stacked ships.
Or use rules.txt to increase thier cost to like 80 -100 gold which is equivelent to thier value. |
Well that's the rub. When we play, a 39-49 map with large continents means you're all on the same darn continent, and you're not that far from each other. So keeping their cities far from yours usually isn't very realistic. Also on that small of a map, some of your cities are near the coast, and while a good navy helps defend that, it's not a guarentee. By the time espionage comes, the borders are a bit blurry.
Even 80-100 gold may be undervalued for a vet spy, considering the same spy may be able to destroy over a 1000 shields of an enemies production and gain you 3 or 4 caravans worth of tech bonus.
RAH
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:20
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God, I loathe the little monsters.
They are a disaster, I'll never understand the rationel for their addition to the game, they should be banished forever into the void.
A word of caution, you can muck around with them change their abilites, but it does strange things to the Civ-2 MGE engine, in some scenarios were they are altered and removed diplomancy is impossible (I know this sounds odd, but it happens), and I have seen it where the Diplo/spy will not funtion (you attempt to move it into an enemy city, but the spy subscreen will not activate).
As for play balence, I think it destroys the hard work of good players, is a cheap fix for the weaker player, and an EXTREMLY unfair advantge to the strong player.
The damn things force you to sometimes stay in democracy when you'd rather go fundy and whip some bum's backside.
In one HOTW game 2 of my diplos destroyed an attacking army of 17 Crusaders (I bribed two, and ol Ozzy had several nice stacks ready to be crushed nearby), a totally nonsense result considering I only had 28 units at turn's start and was the victim of a sneak attack.
You can house rule them to no city bribe, but for me personally, they suck, and I can easily live without them.
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25-06-2002 20:40
) 
Spys aren't the only slot machine aspect of civ3 
) i feel as though spies should not be allowed to poison water supply down to 1 nor be used for a suitcase bomb...in reality the spy is far more deadlier than the nuke......
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