28-06-2002 19:26									#271
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Then explain to me again why has terror erupted in 1929?

Dont you know? The Jews wanted to take over the temple mount! They built a temporary wooden wall between the men and women praying(in the only day of the year they were allowed to pray).

It's a clear provocation, just like Sharon's visit.

	28-06-2002 23:26									#272
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Below is a quote from CyberGnu. His positions are "somewhat" justified if one accepts his basic premise that the occupation of "Palestine" is illegal because the Arab wars in both 1948 and 1967 to extinquish Israel were justified. Israel was then and continues today to be the aggressor. His position, consistently applied, is the "Jews stole the land." He is unclear about when the theft started, perhaps as early as the days of the Turkish Empire. Perhaps as early as the days of Joshua.

I believe CyberGnu's thinking correctly reflects the "historical views" expressed on Arab or pro-Palestinian internet sites. It also seems that these are the views being taught Mulsim kids in schools and by religious leaders in Mosques across the world.

I personally have heard these exact same historical views stated here in the US by pro-Palestinians.

If I or other "Israeli-apologists" express a different view of the facts, we are said to be victims of Israeli propaganda.

I have come to the reluctant conclusion that the two camps cannot have rational discussions on this topic because we do not agree on the facts. In lawsuits, this is typically settled by a third party who hears testimony and judges credibility. Since this discussian largely mirrors what is happening at the political level, there possible can never be a political settlement because both sides will continue hacking at one another, each convinced of the ultimate justice of their cause.

Bush yesterday refused to rule out a US solution imposed by force. The way things are going, it looks more and more probable that the US may intervene.

quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu quoting Sikander quote: The same as my view of the bombings of Nanking, Dresden, Hamburg, Coventry, London, Warsaw ad nauseum. Reprehensible, but once you are in a war of annihilation, predictable. At least the nuclear bombings achieved a goal proportional to the destruction visited upon innocents. So you don't make a difference between defense and attack? Is Churchill a war criminal for carrying on the war against Germany, when he could have ended it by capitulating? My view can be summarized in two sentences: I think every human has a right to defend what is his. No one should be forced to sacrifice anything because someone else covets what is his. That is it. The Palestinians are defending their land. End of story. Israel can stop the conflict today if they wanted, but they continue the occupation. When an Israeli civilian is killed, Sharon is responsible. Just like Hitler was responsible for German civilians, not Churchill.

	29-06-2002 09:41									#273
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thank you for pointing out that post, Eli.

CyberGnu, that in no way answers my question.

	06-07-2002 16:47									#274
	A Refusenik's thoughts Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: An Israeli Refusenik Replies to President Bush, June 27, 2002 By Shamai Leibowitz I am an Orthodox Jew and a criminal defense attorney in Tel Aviv. I am also a tank gunner in reserve duty, and part of a group of 1000 soldiers who have refused to serve in the occupied territories [editor’s note: Shamai is adding up the numbers on the ‘seruv’, Yesh Gvul and New Profile lists; together they total well over 1000]. Many of them were imprisoned in military jails in the past few months. Now that President Bush has enlightened us with his new "Plan" for the Middle East, we can only wonder how long it will take him to realize that his plan is useless and meaningless. Although his speech was riddled ith rosy descriptions he envisions for the utopian Palestinian State in the far future, George W. Bush managed to avoid any mention of the present situation in the same parcel of land where all these wonderful things are to materialize. No mention of the fact that all West Bank cities had been invaded by Israeli military forces; that hundreds of thousands of inhabitants are imprisoned in their homes by a strict curfew, and that civilians appearing on city streets are being shot at like dogs by Israeli tanks and Apache helicopters. His failure to understand that no progress can be made while a whole nation is being brutally occupied is the basic flaw in his policy, and serves as the best explanation why his Middle East plans have consistently become colossal failures. Bush's delusional thinking that he can change the Palestinian leadership by delivering a speech is mind-boggling. The American President thinks he can just do away with any leader in the world he dislikes. This kind of thinking is going to cost us a lot of bloodshed. It is only a matter of time until Bush's "new outline" will turn to ashes as the flames in this region reach higher and higher. Instead of offering a glimmer of hope, his plans resemble the famous Biblical burning bush, i.e. more of the same (see Exodus 3;2). This means more Israeli occupation, which will result in more terror and more fatalities. Clearly, the terror attacks are abhorrent. They have no justification in any sane polity. However, no amount of condemnation will stop them. Bush fails to comprehend that the suicide bombings are a product of mass starvation and humiliation of the Palestinian people. Bush's aides are doing us so much harm by refusing to acknowledge that only an immediate end to the Israeli occupation will bring an immediate end to the Palestinian uprising. We are now witnessing a situation in which 3.5 million people have no future, no hope, no vision, other than to become terrorists and avenge the continued harassment and shelling by the Israeli army's helicopters, tanks and artillery. While Bush has never set foot in this region, we have been living here, watching how the Palestinians were trampled and denied basic rights on a daily basis, besieged and occupied in every possible way. Our Jewish sources teach us that where there is no justice, there is no peace. The idea behind the Oslo accords, namely that we could "negotiate" a peace agreement while remaining the Occupying Power, has proven to be romantic nonsense. Can you expect a rape victim to negotiate with her attacker? Can you expect a slave to negotiate with his master a "contract of freedom"? Most Israelis know deep in their hearts that once we stop humiliating and oppressing this nation, we will return to become a safe and secure democratic Israel living next to a viable Palestinian State. Most intelligent people in the world understand that the Palestinians had a right to a state of their own many years ago. And there should have been an Israeli-Palestinian border marking the two completely separate sovereign states. There is only one institution in the world that is blind to this: the Israeli government. This means it is up to us, Israeli soldiers, to defend ourselves. Defend ourselves from our government. And this can only be done through refusal to participate in the occupation. It is our opinion that an Israeli soldier refusing to dominate and starve millions of Palestinians is defending his state in the best possible way. The reason is simple: If enough soldiers refuse, we will eventually force our government to relinquish its death-grip over the West Bank and Gaza. And this will save thousands of lives. In a famous Jewish quote found in the Talmud, it is said: "If I am not for myself, who will be for me?" After Bush showed us how warped his understanding of reality is, he's left it to ourselves to save our nation from complete demise. We will push Bush aside, and do the job ourselves. We, the refusal movement, will continue to grow until thousands of Israeli soldiers announce enough is enough. Then, hopefully, this land which has been battleground for so many years will become a place of refuge, vision and hope for all its inhabitants.

link

	06-07-2002 17:17									#275
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quote: We, the refusal movement, will continue to grow until thousands of Israeli soldiers announce enough is enough.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

	06-07-2002 19:00									#276
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UR : It's funny , I've just read a n article in a local paper , depicting the rise and fall of the refusal movement in the media, and generally. They're trying , but it doesn't seem to work.