Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > Group taunts Chicago mayor with gun giveaway
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread   
Pages (3): [ 1   2   3   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
Wink  Old Post 25-06-2002 21:48
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
Group taunts Chicago mayor with gun giveaway Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote:
CHICAGO — As anti-gun groups across the nation offer everything from cash to free pizzas to people willing to turn in their firearms, a joyfully antagonistic pro-gun-rights group is giving away handguns to residents in Chicago, where merely possessing one is a felony.
The first winner is expected to pick up his Kel-Tec .32-caliber semiautomatic this week. A Hasidic Jew, who says his traditional black hat and long black coat make him feel like a target for anti-Semites, plans to pick up the gun in the suburbs and break the law when he crosses back into the city.

Chicago, the murder capital of the United States last year with 666 homicides, has — along with Washington, D.C. — the nation's strictest gun-control laws. And the city's most powerful and vocal gun-control proponent is Mayor Richard M. Daley.

All of which makes the goal of Concealed Carry and its president and chief provocateur, John Birch, all the more delicious.

"I'm trying to pick people who Mayor Daley will have a lot of fun going up against," Birch said. "I'm going to all his support groups: gays, women, blacks, Jews, the disabled."

The winner of the first contest — who, because he plans to commit a felony very soon, asked that his name not be used — was not the group's first choice.

Birch says the first man who was set to take the gun, until the media started poking around, was another Jew who suffered three bullet wounds in 1999 when white supremacist Benjamin Smith drove through Illinois and Indiana, shooting blacks, Asians and Jews, killing two and wounding nine.

The front-runner for the second giveaway: an HIV-positive gay man who lives in a neighborhood not known for its acceptance of alternative lifestyles.

The handout program, the latest in a series of attempts by Birch to poke holes in Chicago and Illinois gun laws, began in April with a posting on Concealed Carry's Web site inviting Chicagoans to write an essay explaining why they need handguns for protection.

They had to be 21 or older, able to pass a federal background check and possess an Illinois Firearm Owners Identification Card — a requirement for all state gun owners and yet another law that irks gun-rights groups.

Extra points were given to women, the disabled and applicants the group deemed likely to face a physical threat, be it working the night shift at a convenience store, having a restraining order against a former spouse or wearing Hasidic clothing.

Birch, 48, a retired Army reservist who is no relation to the namesake of the conservative John Birch Society, lives in the suburb of Oak Brook, where possessing a registered handgun is legal but carrying it concealed is not. He spends much of his time trying to overturn that law — Illinois being one of six states to have such a restriction — as well as Chicago's ordinance forbidding handgun possession altogether.

Since founding Concealed Carry in 1998, Birch has done much to keep both topics on the political table.

"I can't say I'm surprised that Mr. Birch has come up with another stunt to draw attention to himself and this issue," said Thomas Mannard, executive director of the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence. "Basically, what Mr. Birch is doing here is hoping that one of these individuals brings the gun into Chicago, gets arrested and brings the city's gun ban to court. If he wants that, why doesn't he do it himself?"

While in no hurry to get arrested, the soon-to-be owner of the new Kel-Tec says he's thrilled to be joining Birch in his efforts, because he shares Birch's views.

"I don't feel like I'm being used at all," the man said. "I feel like maybe I'm using him. I get a free gun. And I definitely feel like a target."

The winner and Birch agree, however, that they are itching to see Chicago's ordinance tested in court. Another of Concealed Carry's 1,200 members filed suit last month, asking that some Illinois and Chicago gun laws be overturned on the grounds that they are unconstitutional and conflict with each other.

Birch, whose sensational methods do not always earn him the support of other state gun-rights groups, made his public debut in 1999, during a growing debate in the Illinois Legislature over the concealed-carry law.

Realizing lawmakers were not likely to reduce the charge for carrying a concealed weapon from a felony to a misdemeanor, he proposed — unsuccessfully — that they at least exempt from prosecution anyone who completed a 40-hour firearm training course and passed a criminal background check.

Birch, a federally licensed gun dealer, can buy the small Kel-Tec — often used by police officers as a backup weapon — from a distributor for just $189.

"At that price, I can keep doing this forever," Birch said. "This should be fun."


I wonder if Ming has signed up yet.

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:20
  Old Post 25-06-2002 21:51 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Why don't they just arrest the members of this group on some sort of conspiracy to commit a felony charges and put an end to the story?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
  Old Post 25-06-2002 21:57
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Enter the AD-FREE zone

According to the CNN story I saw, its the people with the guns that are in trouble with the law, not the people giving the guns out.

David Floyd is offline David Floyd
King
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:20
  Old Post 25-06-2002 22:24 Visit David Floyd's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Especially since, where he lives, there is no law against handgun ownership, and any law against giving away handguns strikes me as unenforceable.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
  Old Post 25-06-2002 22:31 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

I think Illinois and Chicago could go after him, since he is inciting people to committ a felony.

Dr Strangelove is offline Dr Strangelove
King
USA
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 25-06-2002 22:48
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Or they could wait until someone who gets a free gun committs a crime.

Last edited by Dr Strangelove on 26-06-2002 at 04:10

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
  Old Post 25-06-2002 22:52 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

The dude is a fool to think that by targetting Daley's base he's going to accomplish anything. It's not like all of Chicago's Jews will ralley around someone comitting a felony. Heck, since this guy is now a material witness against the person to whom he gave the gun, then can just subpeona his records and find out who it is.

Ming is offline Ming
Chief Minion

Donate to the Red Cross
Mingapulco - CST
Jan 1970
time: 23:20
  Old Post 25-06-2002 23:08 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Re: Group taunts Chicago mayor with gun giveaway Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
I wonder if Ming has signed up yet.


No need to... I moved out of the City Proper a long time ago. In the burbs where I live, we have different laws.

rah is offline rah
Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:20
  Old Post 25-06-2002 23:08
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

How is what this guy doing a crime?

"A Hasidic Jew, who says his traditional black hat and long black coat make him feel like a target for anti-Semites, plans to pick up the gun in the suburbs and break the law when he crosses back into the city. "

As long as the gun is given away where it's legal. (and you'll notice that the man goes to some lengths to assure that all the legal qualifications are met.) He has no responsibility for what happens later.

I don't agree with what he's doing, but you can guarentee that he's checked out the legal aspect of it.

I personally think he's a wimp for not taking one into the city himself to challange the law. Getting others to do it seem a little yellow on his part. Especially when he states, "At that price, I can keep doing this forever," Birch said. "This should be fun."

RAH

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
  Old Post 25-06-2002 23:14 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Come on Rah, you know inciting others to committ a crime isn't legal anywhere in the US.

rah is offline rah
Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:20
  Old Post 25-06-2002 23:25
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I doubt they could prove he's inciting others to commit a crime. He's just giving away guns through a contest. The fact that they have to be Chicago residents is immaterial.

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with what he's doing, but I don't think it's illegal. If it was, do you think he'd be going public with it? Again I guarentee he's been talking to lawyers about this prior to doing it.

RAH

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:20
  Old Post 25-06-2002 23:30 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I'm sure the government can hire equally expensive lawyers to make his life miserable with.

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
King
United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:20
  Old Post 25-06-2002 23:53 Visit Gatekeeper's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

**shrug** If I'm a criminal hell-bent on getting what I want, I'd just *assume* everyone in my path is armed ... and kill them accordingly, before they ever have a chance to draw their own weapon.

So in that sense, I don't see how being armed is going to save you from a criminal if he or she is going to kill you "just to be safe." It might help if you know someone's coming after you ... but if you don't ... well, dead is dead. Terminal surprise, one might say. "S/he never knew what hit 'em."

And that guy who was shot three times by that berserker gunman. Did he know he was going to be shot? Or was this "out of the blue?" If it's the former, and his targeting skills were good, he might not have been shot. But if it was the latter, what the hell was he going to do? Magically rise up off the ground after being shot three times, pull out his own weapon and drop the criminal?

Gatekeeper

The Emperor Fabulous is offline The Emperor Fabulous
Warlord
Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:20
  Old Post 25-06-2002 23:56
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

waoh, no one else picked up on that?!

CHICAGO HAD 666 HOMICIDES!

rah is offline rah
Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:20
  Old Post 26-06-2002 00:11
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Full PM-box? Change here!

It's a statistic, not a prophesy. or a sign.
If we want to see Satan in Chicago, we need not look any farther than City Hall

RAH

Ming is offline Ming
Chief Minion

Donate to the Red Cross
Mingapulco - CST
Jan 1970
time: 23:20
  Old Post 26-06-2002 01:39 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Originally posted by rah
If we want to see Satan in Chicago, we need not look any farther than City Hall
RAH


Or just look at all the owners of the Chicago Sports Franchises...

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
  Old Post 26-06-2002 01:44
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

I think that Satan would want to own a team that was actually good.

faded glory is offline faded glory
King
This trash talking 2 bit dope dealer is about to learn respect for the law
Jan 2001
time: 05:20
  Old Post 26-06-2002 01:45
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

Daley is a corrupt ass. He's not a bad mayor, but he's very corrupt and shuts down opposition like nothing you've ever seen.


"Vote early, Vote Often, Vote Daley"- Daley

Ming is offline Ming
Chief Minion

Donate to the Red Cross
Mingapulco - CST
Jan 1970
time: 23:20
  Old Post 26-06-2002 01:46 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#19 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
I think that Satan would want to own a team that was actually good.


Nahhhhh... Satan would rather watch Chicago Sports Fans SUFFER...

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:20
  Old Post 26-06-2002 01:52 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#20 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote:
Nahhhhh... Satan would rather watch Chicago Sports Fans SUFFER...


-Given the infinite quality of the teams in Chicago, I don't think he would actually need to bring that about himself

- Groucho - is offline - Groucho -
Prince

Jan 2001
time: 00:20
  Old Post 26-06-2002 01:55
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#21 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote:
Originally posted by rah
The fact that they have to be Chicago residents is immaterial.


No, it isn't. In almost every state, the elements of conspiracy only require an agreement between two or more people to accomplish an unlawful purpose. Here the unlawful purpose is to carry a concealed weapon in Chicago. The crime is committed by a member of the conspiracy when they perform an act in furtherance of the unlawful purpose (the act itself does not have to be illegal). And it is not a required element that every member of the conspiracy actually commit or plan to commit the illegal act. It's enough that one will and the others act to help that person accomplish the illegal goal.

It seems that so far, though, this guy is just blowing smoke. But once he hands the gun over to the Chicago resident, a conspiracy charge would probably stick.

Politically though, it would make more sense to wait until the guy actually commits the crime and bust the supplier as an accomplice. It's cleaner that way.

Che: Solicitation (or inciting) may not work in this case as many states have restricted common law solicitation to serious felonies. I'm not sure where Illinois stands on this.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
  Old Post 26-06-2002 01:58
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#22 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

He already has started handing them out, Echinda. A Hasidic Jew was the first recipient.

pchang is offline pchang
King
Cupertino?
Aug 1999
time: 05:20
  Old Post 26-06-2002 02:00
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#23 Report this post to a moderator
Not the owner Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Satan doesn't own the teams, he just makes the player/personnel decisions.




Jerry Krause is Satan

- Groucho - is offline - Groucho -
Prince

Jan 2001
time: 00:20
  Old Post 26-06-2002 02:03
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#24 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Oh. Well, that is that then. The article said that the Hasidic Jew was the first planned recipient but indicated it was still "planned". My guess is that this guy wants to get charged so he can bring a constitutional challenge to the law. As a non-Chicagoan I'm not sure if he would have standing to bring the challenge otherwise.

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:20
  Old Post 26-06-2002 02:08 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#25 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

I'm sure this guy wants to be arrested so he can play the martyr.

rah is offline rah
Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:20
  Old Post 26-06-2002 02:18
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#26 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote:
Originally posted by Echinda
No, it isn't. In almost every state, the elements of conspiracy only require an agreement between two or more people to accomplish an unlawful purpose. Here the unlawful purpose is to carry a concealed weapon in Chicago. The crime is committed by a member of the conspiracy when they perform an act in furtherance of the unlawful purpose (the act itself does not have to be illegal). And it is not a required element that every member of the conspiracy actually commit or plan to commit the illegal act. It's enough that one will and the others act to help that person accomplish the illegal goal.


Based on this definition, any gun dealer that sells a gun to any Chicago resident would be guilty of conspiracy. I don't think they would want to open that can of worms.

RAH

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:20
  Old Post 26-06-2002 02:20 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#27 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes, but some gun dealers are not intentionally trying to provide the people of Chicago with a gun. This guy sounds like he is explicitly trying to get someone to commit a felony.

Sprayber is offline Sprayber

Emperor
Dixie
Oct 2000
time: 23:20
  Old Post 26-06-2002 02:22
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#28 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Come on Rah, you know inciting others to committ a crime isn't legal anywhere in the US.


Authorities should take this in consideration the next time a protest turns violent.

rah is offline rah
Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:20
  Old Post 26-06-2002 02:30
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#29 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

quote:
Originally posted by Victor Galis
Yes, but some gun dealers are not intentionally trying to provide the people of Chicago with a gun. This guy sounds like he is explicitly trying to get someone to commit a felony.


The line is so thin. Any suburban dealer that sees a Chicago address on the registration knows that law is going to be broken. Is there really any difference?
These same gun dealers do advertise in Chicago publication, which could be seen as the same thing.

RAH

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:20
  Old Post 26-06-2002 02:33 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#30 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yeah, but this guy is just being so blatant about it. The others might make a case that they didn't know or something like this, but this is a guy saying, "Come on, I'll help you commit a felony!"

 
Pages (3): [ 1   2   3   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:20.
Apolyton Time is 00:20.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0554 seconds (92.12% PHP - 7.88% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net