26-06-2002 21:00									#1
	Map Making, why do we have a world map before we've got Map Making? Increase the size of your Attachments

We all know that since Civ-1, Map Making has granted us the possibility to build the most basic of navel units, and the Lighthouse wonder (which BTW could be built in the middle of the desert in Civ-1, IIRC).

We also know that we've had access to a world map before we've even found our first city.

Is Map Making really a requirement for being able to cunstruct boats?
IMHO, no.

Is there any realism to the fact that we have a world map before we know how to make map (i.e. having Map Making)?
IMHO, no.


Consequently, what I'd like to see (or rather not see) in Civilization, is that until the discovery of Map Making, units and cities would not see more than what their sight allows, a unit's location on the globe would entirely depend on our memory. Furthermore, that basic naval unit should be available by the discovery of a another civilization advance. The map making skill could also be implemented into the Writing-advance, instead of being a separate discovery.



A more ambitious approch to redefining Map Making would be that units out there somewhere in the unknown by the time of discovery would no see their location until they've returned to home ground within the cultural borders or to a road that connects to home ground. This would render sea expeditions far more interesting since the map wouldn't be available to other's than the boat itselft until it has returned home.

Perhaps only some units would have map making skills. These map making units would face the fear of losing the map to a rival civ when destroyed by another map making unit, or a non-map making unit attacking with a map making (stacked or whatever).

Also, Magellan's Expedition would look like a silly wonder to build. Instead, Magellan's Expedition should perhaps be a wonder that would grant us with a load of fast naval units. Hence, the benefit of the wonder would be a rapid exploration of the globe , and perhaps also allowing a rapid colonization of the planet.


Hmm, a much longer post than I intended to write. Any thoughts?

	26-06-2002 21:18									#2
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I like this idea for the upcoming MP, against the computer it would really just set us humans back even more...

quote: These map making units would face the fear of losing the map to a rival civ when destroyed by another map making unit,

	27-06-2002 00:45									#3
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hi ,

even before we had mapmaking as humas , we could explain , where something was , then someone started to carve things out , ....

what the tech mapmaking means is probably the intelligent version of a map , with the use of the stars , a map had certain distances , etc , ...

have a nice day

Last edited by panag on 28-06-2002 at 01:14

	27-06-2002 00:59									#4
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Good stuff for Civ 4.

The idea I like the most is that only certain units have map making ability (say... explorers). A ship only records it's journey properly with an explorer on board (otherwise the blackness closes in behind it).

On the other hand, keep in mind that many people will HATE this, and hardcore gamers will simply sit down with paper and pencil (or better yet a spreadsheet) and record it all manually. In fact, the more I think about it, maybe it isn't a good idea. It may just end up adding tedium.

-Arrian

	27-06-2002 02:02									#5
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quote: even before we had mapmaking as humas , we could expalin , where something was , then someone started to carve things out , ....

Yeah, we humans could explain where it was, but we couldn't make a decent map (where distances match etc.), before, well, we learnt map making.

quote: what the tech mapmaking means is probably the intelligent version of a map , with the use of the stars , a map had certain distances , etc , ...

Isn't that exactly what Navigation is?

quote: On the other hand, keep in mind that many people will HATE this, and hardcore gamers will simply sit down with paper and pencil (or better yet a spreadsheet) and record it all manually. In fact, the more I think about it, maybe it isn't a good idea. It may just end up adding tedium.

Yeah, I do think lots of people will hate it, which is quite sad, since I really think it would add nice tactical elements to the game, and some realism.

	27-06-2002 13:28									#6
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Anyone remember the Polynesians sailed across the Pacific Ocean with boats no bigger than galleys and no map making skills? (Actually, naval maps are called charts). They still navigated superbly using the stars, currents, and other factors.

BTW, galleys DID historically sail across seas, unlike in Civ 3 where they seem to usually sink. In reality they only occasionally sank.

	27-06-2002 17:57									#7
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I've thought about the map in Civ a little but. I agree it is unrealistic, but making the map invisible until mapmaking to me would make the game pretty, well, annoying.

This could be some kind of MP game, where you have to "Explore the World" before the other players, but in the regular game, no way.

Saying that units don't have the map available to them unless there's an explorer or scout with them is kinda like saying that I can't remember how I got to work on my first day.

	27-06-2002 19:12									#8
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If Firaxis ever employed this I would never play civ3 again. What about the AIs perfect memory? Its a computer so obviously its going to remember the exact characteristics of every tile it encounters. The AI can already see an undefended city 20 tiles deep in your territory.

I agree with Panag, map making means advanced map making. Since 4000BC people could make simple logs and leave instructions on how to get from A to B.

	27-06-2002 21:55									#9
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While i agree that making map making necessary for naval units is hihly unrealitic, I don't think one could design a game with such a system as was outlined. Does not the computer need to keep track of where everything is, and how would one display this lack of information?

Perhaps a more interesting way of getting a similar effect with less hasle is an expanding map window ad areas shaded black and white:

The map display in the corner will only let you see where you are in relation to a small area of the total map, the rest will be shaded white, like in EU2. You may know the entirety of your local area wihout having a clue about distant lands since they don't even show up on your map diplay window. For you to see them in your map display you woul need to explore and trade info, with rules similar to those in the current game. Under such a system you could know all there is about your current continent withou yet having a clue about other continents (since a big black, unexplored are would not show up in your overall map disply until you took the plunge into the unexplored and epanded your horizons, ie. your map diplay window).

	27-06-2002 22:32									#10
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bingo, panag! People did make maps long before they made accurate maps. I think the map making tech is the jump to having maps that could be reliably used. The link to triremes/galleys is just that these vessels could now be used on a large scale. Regarding the use of stars and charts,mwaf, you are correct, that is what navigation is.

I think it's a bad idea to have map visibility only based on current turn city/unit position. If people know that Rome is 10 tiles north of Boston, they aren't going to forget that just because they can't see it. Likewise, they will know where the road to Rome is, and what terrain is found along the way.

Which brings up another key problem: Trade routes in Civ3 are based on connectivity of the known map. If the map blacks out, your trade routes will either be continuously cut or you'll hafta camp 50 units along the road just to keep them open.

	28-06-2002 01:19									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq bingo, panag! People did make maps long before they made accurate maps. I think the map making tech is the jump to having maps that could be reliably used. The link to triremes/galleys is just that these vessels could now be used on a large scale. Regarding the use of stars and charts,mwaf, you are correct, that is what navigation is. I think it's a bad idea to have map visibility only based on current turn city/unit position. If people know that Rome is 10 tiles north of Boston, they aren't going to forget that just because they can't see it. Likewise, they will know where the road to Rome is, and what terrain is found along the way. Which brings up another key problem: Trade routes in Civ3 are based on connectivity of the known map. If the map blacks out, your trade routes will either be continuously cut or you'll hafta camp 50 units along the road just to keep them open.

hi ,

, maybe its the tech and era that needs to be worked on , ....

the Romans had good maps , of a city , province , but not complete of the entire nation , when it came to distances , it could be wrong , yet the map of a city was within an inch , ....

maybe we have to work on the tech's , as to when they appear , and the era's , ....

have a nice day