27-06-2002 22:40									#1
	I Know your Enemy's Enemy is your Friend, but... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I have a war with the Greeks, and wipe them out. A few turns later, I go to see the French, and my adviser advises that I be careful because the French betrayed "our friends the Greeks".
As the title says, I know your enemy's enemy is your friend, but considering I destroyed the Greek civilisation calling them my friends seems a bit strange! Hardly a major problem, but maybe one that could be amended sometime.

	27-06-2002 22:51									#2
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Yeah I always found that strange. There are a few other examples of little quirks like this one. One of these examples is when during diplo negotiations you offer the AI 2 luxuries, world map, 1 tech for only 1 of his tech's and he says "forget it, it's never going to happen"!

That's frustrating but then after about 10 turns when I have saved up about 2000 gold I try the same deal again and he agrees because I've sweetened the deal by throwing in 900 gold. Now why couldn't he have said that in the first place instead of saying forget it, it's never going to happen.

Sometimes I feel like getting in my car and driving all the way to maryland and finding the guy who programmed this game and seriously $^#@%^#@%&@%^@&@@#$^&@$#&#$ him up.

	27-06-2002 23:16									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Haupt. Dietrich Yeah I always found that strange. There are a few other examples of little quirks like this one. One of these examples is when during diplo negotiations you offer the AI 2 luxuries, world map, 1 tech for only 1 of his tech's and he says "forget it, it's never going to happen"! That's frustrating but then after about 10 turns when I have saved up about 2000 gold I try the same deal again and he agrees because I've sweetened the deal by throwing in 900 gold. Now why couldn't he have said that in the first place instead of saying forget it, it's never going to happen. Sometimes I feel like getting in my car and driving all the way to maryland and finding the guy who programmed this game and seriously $^#@%^#@%&@%^@&@@#$^&@$#&#$ him up.

Ten turns later the tech might be much cheaper, because other civs discovered it. If you ask the AI what he wants for a tech or resource and he says "it's never going to happen", that means that you simply don't have enough to offer at that time. A few turns later, the price might have changed drastically.
Also take into account that the value of luxury resources depends directly on how many happy faces you (or the AI respectively) would gain, so the price for that changes with the number of cities, number of market places and other luxury resources you already have.

	28-06-2002 00:19									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Lucilla Ten turns later the tech might be much cheaper, because other civs discovered it. If you ask the AI what he wants for a tech or resource and he says "it's never going to happen", that means that you simply don't have enough to offer at that time. A few turns later, the price might have changed drastically. Also take into account that the value of luxury resources depends directly on how many happy faces you (or the AI respectively) would gain, so the price for that changes with the number of cities, number of market places and other luxury resources you already have.

Thanks for the clarification!

I wish though that the programmers simply wrote what you said into the AI's reply instead of "Forget it, it's never going to happen". It is true that after playing for a while any intelligent person can figure out why the AI is saying no, but a simple straight answer would save many a headache.

	28-06-2002 00:29									#5
	Re: I Know your Enemy's Enemy is your Friend, but... Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Pillager As the title says, I know your enemy's enemy is your friend, but considering I destroyed the Greek civilisation calling them my friends seems a bit strange!

I didn't really understand this either, but rationalized that perhaps your advisor is just being diplomatic or using rhetoric to convince you that the French really ARE evil. Either way it doesn't ring true.

	28-06-2002 00:53									#6
	Re: I Know your Enemy's Enemy is your Friend, but... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Pillager I have a war with the Greeks, and wipe them out. A few turns later, I go to see the French, and my adviser advises that I be careful because the French betrayed "our friends the Greeks". As the title says, I know your enemy's enemy is your friend, but considering I destroyed the Greek civilisation calling them my friends seems a bit strange! Hardly a major problem, but maybe one that could be amended sometime.

Yeah, must agree with this. And especially this one would be extremely easy to fix - just omit the word "friends" and it is WAY better: "French betrayed the Greeks (in the past)." No need to say whether Greeks were our friends or not. I prefer to keep myself at a distance from all those other guys anyway... all of them have already betrayed me one time or another...

	28-06-2002 01:35									#7
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Haupt. Dietrich Thanks for the clarification! I wish though that the programmers simply wrote what you said into the AI's reply instead of "Forget it, it's never going to happen". It is true that after playing for a while any intelligent person can figure out why the AI is saying no, but a simple straight answer would save many a headache.

I guess, my answer would have been to long to fit into the box on the screen

	28-06-2002 02:08									#8
	Re: I Know your Enemy's Enemy is your Friend, but... Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Pillager I have a war with the Greeks, and wipe them out. A few turns later, I go to see the French, and my adviser advises that I be careful because the French betrayed "our friends the Greeks". As the title says, I know your enemy's enemy is your friend, but considering I destroyed the Greek civilisation calling them my friends seems a bit strange! Hardly a major problem, but maybe one that could be amended sometime.

Well, if you destroyed them, I'm sure you kept a couple of their cities, so the Greek people are now your friends.

Basically, the game sees any civ you are not at war with as "friend". Simple solution, they could put "The French have betrayed the Greeks before, don't trust them." No reference to friend at all. Easy as pie.

	28-06-2002 03:53									#9
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Why don’t you just change the text file? You can have all sorts of other fun there as well. You would not believe the things that hot little number I downloaded for a Cultural Advisor wants me to do with her in ALL my cities…

	28-06-2002 05:46									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Haupt. Dietrich . . .Sometimes I feel like getting in my car and driving all the way to maryland and finding the guy who programmed this game and seriously $^#@%^#@%&@%^@&@@#$^&@$#&#$ him up.

Yea. Take a number and get in line.

So they're in Maryland!

	28-06-2002 07:24									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Haupt. Dietrich Yeah I always found that strange. There are a few other examples of little quirks like this one. One of these examples is when during diplo negotiations you offer the AI 2 luxuries, world map, 1 tech for only 1 of his tech's and he says "forget it, it's never going to happen"! That's frustrating but then after about 10 turns when I have saved up about 2000 gold I try the same deal again and he agrees because I've sweetened the deal by throwing in 900 gold. Now why couldn't he have said that in the first place instead of saying forget it, it's never going to happen.

They prefer cash as to deals per turn aswell.
certainly when you are not on 'polite/gracious' terms.
culture and militairy capabilities come into the picture too.
This is all offcourse coming from personnel experience and could be well off

	28-06-2002 08:41									#12
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perhaps the advisor is being sarcastic?

or more likely, the programmer was drunk?

	30-06-2002 04:40									#13
	Re: I Know your Enemy's Enemy is your Friend, but... Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Pillager I have a war with the Greeks, and wipe them out. A few turns later, I go to see the French, and my adviser advises that I be careful because the French betrayed "our friends the Greeks". As the title says, I know your enemy's enemy is your friend, but considering I destroyed the Greek civilisation calling them my friends seems a bit strange! Hardly a major problem, but maybe one that could be amended sometime.

hi ,

, would it be possible to post a SAV(e) ,.....

have a nice day

	30-06-2002 13:14									#14
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1 week of posting ban and 10% pcr to Haupt. Dietrich, and Coracle for their "jokes"

	30-06-2002 14:26									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Haupt. Dietrich Sometimes I feel like getting in my car and driving all the way to maryland and finding the guy who programmed this game and seriously $^#@%^#@%&@%^@&@@#$^&@$#&#$ him up.

That'll be Soren then.

But seriously, this has got to be a bug rather than a design feature. It sounds like what happens is that for the purposes of reputation, friend/enemy status isn't taken into account. SO betraying your enemies is frowned upon! Also, bearing in mind that the AI isn't as smart as we are, if France got the message "Germany [you] betrayed our friends the English" - even though France was at war with England, your standing with France would still go down. Which has got to be a bug.

	30-06-2002 16:48									#16
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no, i think its just a design floor! Somthing they stupidly designed and missed out a few lines of programing so they could get home early for some...
...sugar!
I suppose they just missed it out in the x-mas rush (mmm, prezies!).

They really should of sorted it out ASAP!

	30-06-2002 20:00									#17
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What if since the Greeks don't exist any more then they don't have a current reputation standing. Therefore, the a considered in a default (friend) status, because the logic does not know what else to do.