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jdjdjd
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of España
May 2002
time: 00:20
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Prior to embarking on my sea journey to the land between the mountains and the jungle, I got wind of this discussion from one of the messengers sent to reach the warrior group and I had to send this dispatch with haste....Please see here:
Ethics
Several members, including Sir Ralph and Mr. notyoueither, etched out an elaborate plan--which was quite excellent work and very thoughtful. But it addressed only one option, and that is...war with France (or perhaps America), but only an all-out first-strike war. All other goals of Apolyton are discarded and only war and carrying out that war are considered.
Why is only one option looked at? Because many people believe that we have no other options and do not think outside the box. Several intelligent responses have been made here in the thread listed above that indicate, yes we should think of more than just this as a game and we should think about acting ethically and morally and challenge ourselves beyond basic animal instinct.
This is excellent thinking, so now we must translate this type of thought into a legitimate counter proposal to the current, rather unimaginatively-named, Case: Pink. Those of you who have found the thread listed above inspiring, now must rise to the occasion and test yourselves, are you up to the task of standing up right now and being counted? Is there another alternative to the current war stance? Speak now or forever hold your tongues!
So is there an alternative?
Of course there is.
First, some flaws in their plan,
1. It assumes we only have 50% losses of archers, based I assume on attack strength equal to defense strength. But it does not consider the defensive advantage of being in a village you own that our opponent will have. Or any terrain advantages they will have. Then is the percent, greater than 50%...and What if we lose all our archers at once? There is no real contingency plan
2. We are already behind in scientific and cultural achievement, what is going to help us keep the citizens of any conquered territory from overthrowing us and rejoining their original civilization? Our garrison? Do we not risk losing the garrison then as they see how much better the citizens they guard had their lives prior to becoming part of Apolytonia?
3. We are already behind in science and culture, how will we make it up? We have very little gold and no income right now, and this is while we have science investment low....we have trouble financially, scientifically, culturally...why, because we have put all the eggs in one basket (now we must hope the basket is not knocked from our hands by the French or Americans).
What if we did this....
1. Give up this idea of archer, archer, archer, etc. and concentrate on worker/settler, spearman and temples. Then libraries, harbors, settlers, and swordsman, at the right time. Some chariots when we can get them, too. I do not propose, no offensive military at all, we need to defend ourselves, which may require some counterassaults, not just just defensive units.
2. Change science to the long term goal of Map Making, in effect we are on an island, water on two sides, and France and America on the other two. We can explore for other land masses and/or speed settlers to areas south and west of the mountains or north east of the jungle.
3. We should not pop rush the temples as suggested by Sir Ralph, or pop rush anything for that matter. We need citizens to work the lands or to create settlers and workers.
4. The workers must continue to clear jungle near Banana HQ (I hate this name, from now on I call it Banana Harbor), and we should irrigate and build roads in the cleared areas for our citizens of Banana Harbor to work. Banana Harbor can then look forward to increased population growth, which means more workers and settlers. We should continue this on any new village established in the jungle.
4a. Roads should also continue to be worked, for the purpose of speeding settlers to the "front".
5. All settlers should be placed strategically as close as possible to the borders of America and France to stop their movement southward and eastward respectively. We should also explore the area between France and America, perhaps there is a home for some of our settlers there, too. Also west of the jungle appears to be a better bet for expansion than north of it. If we have settlers on the move to that area of flatland between the mountains and the jungle, then we can look to leap frog from there to the mountain area, or further west.
Go West Young Man! Let us settle faster than our counterparts, before they know what has hit them!
6. We continue to work on our culture, and with our settlers close in to France and America, we should be able to, hopefully, persuade their people that our way is better and then will happily join us.
This is a start, (I'm working on limited knowledge, having not seen the Save Game itself, yet). It is meant as a potential option for you to think about in light of this thread.
Why not challenge ourselves to be better than any other civilization, or the AI. Is this not an opportunity to use our collective knowledge to play more than just the run of the mill game, to be more than just one of the masses, to win on the higher ground. Lets face it anyone can win by being militaristic, using slavery, using pop rush, bombarding, are you up to the challenge of not using them?! No more lame excuses, i.e. "we must survive first", "all civilizations have a dark past", "its just a game", etc.
This is your call to action Apolytonia! "Don't say that later will be better! " Can we make now better, is the question. Yes! Yes! Yes!!!
I stand ready to end my hide and seek with the Imperial Guard and return to join you in building something that will last, something that we can hold our heads high about, something that will not embarass our ancestors! (this is not a pitch for a minister position, I do not have aspirations any longer)
What say ye Apolytonia?!
Finally, fairwell eewolf, lets see if your thoughts have lead to something good.
I remain,
jdjdjd
Last edited by jdjdjd on 27-06-2002 at 23:27
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:20
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I think the whole issue with the archers must be thought out more. In a game I started yesterday as Germany, I found Russia on a tiny little peninsula, on an otherwise uninhabited semi-continent to myself (seperated by 1 tile of mountains from another semi-continent with France, England and others on it). I launched quite a few archers, 8 or so, half of them veterans. By that point, Russia had 4 cities. The first far-north ones closest to me were easily taken by groups of 4 archers each, and auto-razed, and I lost most of them, including nearly all of my southern city attack group. I had about 3 archers left. Reinforcements, back up to about 5 (hadn't built up my road system well yet), and they were all wiped out in an assault on their capital. Very unfun. 500 years later, they'd taken over one of my cities in an amphibious assault, I had taken Moscow, and auto-razed another city they'd built south of Moscow. The lesson is: make sure 100% that the first assault will win, otherwise it will be a long costly war, or a long and VERY costly war if we lose.
As far as looking into alternatives, it's good that people are questioning the current doctrine. However, I feel very strongly that our only chance in this game will be to wipe out a civ soon. We have a massive jungle to our north, which will yield productive cities... in 3000+ years. We don't have that kind of time. On Emperor, between now and then we'll be wiped out if we don't strengthen our situation. The only way we can do this is to take the more fertile land of another civ, and transplant our empire there. That is our only chance of survival as I see it, and I'm sure many others agree with me.
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by jdjdjd
1. Give up this idea of archer, archer, archer, etc. and concentrate on worker/settler, spearman and temples. Then libraries, harbors, settlers, and swordsman, at the right time. Some chariots when we can get them, too. I do not propose, no offensive military at all, we need to defend ourselves, which may require some counterassaults, not just just defensive units. |
Where will you get the horses and iron from. The chance that our 8 grassland tiles and our single mountain yield horses and iron, are pretty low.
quote:
2. Change science to the long term goal of Map Making, in effect we are on an island, water on two sides, and France and America on the other two. We can explore for other land masses and/or speed settlers to areas south and west of the mountains or north east of the jungle. |
This makes us 95% corrupt cities and we don't have the chance for a leader to build a FP in a decent time.
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3. We should not pop rush the temples as suggested by Sir Ralph, or pop rush anything for that matter. We need citizens to work the lands or to create settlers and workers. |
I assume you know, that in emperor the 2nd citizen is unhappy. We don't have any luxuries, so a size 4 city with 1 garrison already needs an entertainer, who is pretty unproductive anyway. At the end of Case Pink, at least Apolyton will be size 4 or close. Why not build 10 shields and then rush a temple, to get rid of the unproductive citizen? It leaves a size 3 city that still can build a settler.
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4. The workers must continue to clear jungle near Banana HQ (I hate this name, from now on I call it Banana Harbor), and we should irrigate and build roads in the cleared areas for our citizens of Banana Harbor to work. Banana Harbor can then look forward to increased population growth, which means more workers and settlers. We should continue this on any new village established in the jungle. |
You know, that the effect of irrigation under despotism is zero, do you? And that it needs 17 turns for an industrious worker to clean, road and mine a single tile.
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4a. Roads should also continue to be worked, for the purpose of speeding settlers to the "front". |
An industrious worker roads a jungle tile in 5 turns. Who will build/maintain all these workers?
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5. All settlers should be placed strategically as close as possible to the borders of America and France to stop their movement southward and eastward respectively. |
In the swamps, being unproductive. Good idea.
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Go West Young Man! Let us settle faster than our counterparts, before they know what has hit them! |
Your young man will be totally corrupt, you know... And the AIs have 20% food and production bonus. No chance to outproduce them with 2 or 3 cities.
quote:
6. We continue to work on our culture, and with our settlers close in to France and America, we should be able to, hopefully, persuade their people that our way is better and then will happily join us. |
Culture flipping heavily depends on the location of the capital. You know where ours is, do you?
And you call our plan flawed? 
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GodKing
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Detroit
Feb 2002
time: 00:20
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Ya, 6 unhurt, veteran archers. But when you only have 8 or so to begin with, and only 2 in reserve, with little or no road system to get future reserves to the front quickly, then after the first 2 cities fall you either a) have to pause and continue to wait for your reinforcements (at which point they probably have counterattacked and seriously hurt your main force) b) attack while weakened (and pray to the great banana) or c) make peace without any significant victory, only a couple of raized cities that will soon be repopulated.
I have urged caution from early on. I do agree that we will have to get some land and some cities outside of this cursed jungle and soon if we are to have a chance. And the best way to do that is through war. I just am not sure that this is the best way. Hard and fast is good, if we are lucky. If only 1/2 lucky or even if the great bananna shows his disfavor and sends his taranchulas after us, we are screwed. Just go into DOS and type in FORMAT C: and hit y to all the following promps.
Oh, jdjdjd, I may soon join you on the run from the imperial guard. I fear that when I tried to run for office without joining one of the parties, some of the servant monkeys may have taken offence. If so, I shall send my pet kitty cat out to let you know that I am comming and to arrange a meeting - perhaps one of the mountains to the west. Although I still have hope that I shall not have to run, I am in the process of making preperations. Let me know if there is anything you may need, some good tariaki bat meet jerky or some banana flour for making fresh banana bread. Your reports are most interesting.
GodKing
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by jdjdjd
First, some flaws in their plan,
1. It assumes we only have 50% losses of archers, based I assume on attack strength equal to defense strength. But it does not consider the defensive advantage of being in a village you own that our opponent will have. Or any terrain advantages they will have. Then is the percent, greater than 50%...and What if we lose all our archers at once? There is no real contingency plan |
Your logic is flawed. The worst we can face this time in a city is 2 regular spearmen. Take 2 veteran archers, take in account that the spears have a little defense bonus. Ok, the chance to win with 2 archers is about 50%. We have 6.
quote:
2. We are already behind in scientific and cultural achievement, what is going to help us keep the citizens of any conquered territory from overthrowing us and rejoining their original civilization? Our garrison? Do we not risk losing the garrison then as they see how much better the citizens they guard had their lives prior to becoming part of Apolytonia? |
No, if we strike while the AIs expand. They don't build temples now, but settlers and spears. They have the same culture like we, only from the Palace.
quote:
3. We are already behind in science and culture, how will we make it up? |
With peace treaties.
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We have very little gold and no income right now, and this is while we have science investment low....we have trouble financially, scientifically, culturally... |
So why not make a few bucks, with peace treaties again.
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why, because we have put all the eggs in one basket (now we must hope the basket is not knocked from our hands by the French or Americans). |
The worst what can happen is, that they sneak attack us now. We'll be helpless. We would also be, if we followed your plan. Once we have barracks and 2-3 units, nothing can happen to us anymore.The AI tactics are lousy and we have a wonderful killzone in the midst of our (planned) cities.
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jdjdjd
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of España
May 2002
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Where will you get the horses and iron from. The chance that our 8 grassland tiles and our single mountain yield horses and iron, are pretty low.
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True, until we plant more cities we are limited.
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
This makes us 95% corrupt cities and we don't have the chance for a leader to build a FP in a decent time.
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Of course, that depends on the location of the city in relation to the capital. But, don't Freanch or American cities pose a similar problem with corruption, not too mention the problems with unhappiness and possible culture flipping.
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I assume you know, that in emperor the 2nd citizen is unhappy. We don't have any luxuries, so a size 4 city with 1 garrison already needs an entertainer, who is pretty unproductive anyway. At the end of Case Pink, at least Apolyton will be size 4 or close. Why not build 10 shields and then rush a temple, to get rid of the unproductive citizen? It leaves a size 3 city that still can build a settler.
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Or you can build a worker and send him to cut through jungle to yield some additional shields to get rid of the useless entertainer. Or start to build a settler or worker while still at size three. Before even getting to size four.
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
You know, that the effect of irrigation under despotism is zero, do you? And that it needs 17 turns for an industrious worker to clean, road and mine a single tile.
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You are correct re: irrigation. That can wait. As for 17 turns to clear one tile, road and mine it, it would be worth it in the long run.
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
An industrious worker roads a jungle tile in 5 turns. Who will build/maintain all these workers?
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We need to keep our settlers up as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
In the swamps, being unproductive. Good idea.
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Thanks, but I think you use sarcasm here. I do not see the swamps you talk of, but I have not viewed the saved game, just the images posted by Trip. There is enough land west of the river, where I guess you are saying has a flood plain. It includes bonus grass as well as the coast. West of the river...time will tell.
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Your young man will be totally corrupt, you know... And the AIs have 20% food and production bonus. No chance to outproduce them with 2 or 3 cities.
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We need more cities is my point. Perhaps you know better where to place them, but regardless we need to build them.
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Culture flipping heavily depends on the location of the capital. You know where ours is, do you?
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Yes, and you see where the French Capitol is? We have to build our culture to prevent them from flipping us.
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
And you call our plan flawed?
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I also called it excellent work and well thought out. No sarcasm was used there.
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jdjdjd
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of España
May 2002
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Your logic is flawed. The worst we can face this time in a city is 2 regular spearmen. Take 2 veteran archers, take in account that the spears have a little defense bonus. Ok, the chance to win with 2 archers is about 50%. We have 6.
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OK, I can see why you feel confident. But how do you know for sure they will not be veteran spearman by the time we get there, what about barbarian attacks we can not see? and how do you know our first archer does not lose and cause them to be veteran or elite. And their science is much more advance they may have horsemen or swordman by then. I can't see the terrain of Paris, I assume no one can yet, but it may very well be on a hill.
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
No, if we strike while the AIs expand. They don't build temples now, but settlers and spears. They have the same culture like we, only from the Palace.
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But, based on the foreign ministers last report, both France and America were already looking down on our culture. The boost we get from a temple, is a big help in turning that tide, as well as the boost to happiness concerns.
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
With peace treaties.
So why not make a few bucks, with peace treaties again.
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Again, hinging everything on a victory, and that they will look to settle for peace, before countering are attack.
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
The worst what can happen is, that they sneak attack us now. We'll be helpless. We would also be, if we followed your plan. Once we have barracks and 2-3 units, nothing can happen to us anymore.The AI tactics are lousy and we have a wonderful killzone in the midst of our (planned) cities.
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I agree, but I am talking about defensive units so they don't come in and walk all over us. The other thing we should do is keep an open dialog with both of them, to keep them from wanting to attack us.
I do not consider myself the best or most experienced of civ players, clearly you have more game knowledge than me or most people at this site. I hope someone else chimes in and helps with any ideas regarding getting ourselves on our way, other than Case Pink.
What was talked about was challenging ourselves to try and win this game on a higher level, not just from military assault. We can not just exclude all other considerations for the military, we need something to fall back on.
We are an industrious and religious society, we should not forget that, and try to take advantage of it while we dig out of our start position. We should juggle the military with cultural and scientific concerns, so that we are not destroyed at such a young age, should those six archers fail.
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by jdjdjd
True, until we plant more cities we are limited. |
If we would be so lucky to catch a resource with a settler near the AI territory, which I doubt, since the AI knows the resource locations before we do, we would need to hook up the resource and build a road through the whole jungle. An effort much bigger than Case Pink.
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Of course, that depends on the location of the city in relation to the capital. But, don't Freanch or American cities pose a similar problem with corruption, not too mention the problems with unhappiness and possible culture flipping. |
The AIs play at Regent and have 3 content citizens, only the 4th is unhappy. They need only 80% of the food we need to grow in population. They need only 80% of the shields we need to produce. And I assume, at least the French have decent land and do not need to settle in the middle of nowhere.
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Or you can build a worker and send him to cut through jungle to yield some additional shields to get rid of the useless entertainer. Or start to build a settler or worker while still at size three. Before even getting to size four. |
And where do you want to settle?
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We need to keep our settlers up as well. |
A settler founds a city, that gives us 4 more free units, at least under despotism. A worker costs while he exists. Except free captured workers. But with "give peace a chance" you won't get such.
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I do not see the swamps you talk of, but I have not viewed the saved game, just the images posted by Trip. |
I call the jungle swamps. It's the same, food and productionwise. In Civ2, there were 2 different tile types, that were practically the same: Jungle and swamps.
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There is enough land west of the river, where I guess you are saying has a flood plain. It includes bonus grass as well as the coast. West of the river...time will tell. |
Is that there, where the French capital is? Culture flipping in the ADs, anyone? Unless we take it, that is.
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We need more cities is my point. Perhaps you know better where to place them, but regardless we need to build them. |
I concur. And I'm trying to secure a better place. A place, where we should try to jump our capital to.
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Yes, and you see where the French Capitol is? We have to build our culture to prevent them from flipping us. |
One more reason to poprush a temple, and pronto. And to take the French capital, that produces this "horrible" culture. Although it's not higher than ours, not yet.
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by jdjdjd
OK, I can see why you feel confident. But how do you know for sure they will not be veteran spearman by the time we get there, what about barbarian attacks we can not see? and how do you know our first archer does not lose and cause them to be veteran or elite. And their science is much more advance they may have horsemen or swordman by then. I can't see the terrain of Paris, I assume no one can yet, but it may very well be on a hill. |
Neither the French nor the Yanks are militaristic. That means, barracks are not among the first buildings in their build queue. Upgrades defending against barbs are possible. However, in a non-mil civ victories don't lead so quick to a promotion.
There is no 100% chance to win a battle. And never will be as long as randomness makes the combat results. There is a chance (maybe 0.00000000000000001% or so), that a conscript warrior wins against 10 modern armor. But we don't talk about extremes. We talk about a good chance to win. I assume, it's 90% or more. I played more than a dozen games with this strategy on monarch and emperor. Sometimes I was more lucky, sometimes less. But I never saw a disaster. Never ever. The AI doesn't want protracted wars in the expansion phase. They won't massively counterattack and have nothing to strike with. Not yet.
About swordsmen and other bad guys: I attacked a Japanese city with a hooked up iron resource with archers in a game not long ago. They had the iron connected long ago. It was around 700-800BC. I had bought Iron working from them earlier, so they had it for sure. What do you think, how many swordsmen did I meet? Zero, although the Japs are militaristic and pretty aggressive. But during the expansion phase, they build offensive units very very seldom.
We should use this chance now. Later will be too late.
Last edited by Sir Ralph on 28-06-2002 at 02:12
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jdjdjd
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of España
May 2002
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by GodKing
Ya, 6 unhurt, veteran archers. But when you only have 8 or so to begin with, and only 2 in reserve, with little or no road system to get future reserves to the front quickly, then after the first 2 cities fall you either a) have to pause and continue to wait for your reinforcements (at which point they probably have counterattacked and seriously hurt your main force) b) attack while weakened (and pray to the great banana) or c) make peace without any significant victory, only a couple of raized cities that will soon be repopulated.
I have urged caution from early on. I do agree that we will have to get some land and some cities outside of this cursed jungle and soon if we are to have a chance. And the best way to do that is through war. I just am not sure that this is the best way. Hard and fast is good, if we are lucky. If only 1/2 lucky or even if the great bananna shows his disfavor and sends his taranchulas after us, we are screwed. Just go into DOS and type in FORMAT C: and hit y to all the following promps.
Oh, jdjdjd, I may soon join you on the run from the imperial guard. I fear that when I tried to run for office without joining one of the parties, some of the servant monkeys may have taken offence. If so, I shall send my pet kitty cat out to let you know that I am comming and to arrange a meeting - perhaps one of the mountains to the west. Although I still have hope that I shall not have to run, I am in the process of making preperations. Let me know if there is anything you may need, some good tariaki bat meet jerky or some banana flour for making fresh banana bread. Your reports are most interesting.
GodKing |
Given that I am outmanned, outnumbered, outwitted, outsmarted, outknowledged, out...well out everything. I continue my jouney, and will sail for the Mountain Plains.
My adversaries in this discussion are well-informed and have matters in control, I only hope they use discretion and keep the best ideals in mind, as well as what is best for the people.
Godking, I will keep an open for the kitty. I hope I see you in the Mountains, I hope to get a good view of the coming war. Please bring the jerkey you mention as well as nylons and chocolates, I hope to visit France and understand the French women will do anything for these items. I must hurry though, I want to get to France while it still exists.
A man of means by no means....
jdjdjd
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27-06-2002 23:09
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