27-06-2002 23:55									#1
	The AI & Naval units Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I've noticed people *****ing about how the AI never build navies, or doesn't build enough ships, or whatever. Well, I was rooting around in civedit when I noticed that in the Civilizations Rules tab there is a column for "build never" and build often". Out of 16 civs, only Greece, Japan and England have naval units flagged as "build often"

So, if you want more navies, flag that option

	28-06-2002 00:01									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The greeks do build them in numbers. In my current game, they allready have destroyers running about while I'm stuck w/ galleons.

Down with island maps w/ no iron!

	28-06-2002 00:58									#3
	Re: The AI & Naval units Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 I've noticed people *****ing about how the AI never build navies, or doesn't build enough ships, or whatever. Well, I was rooting around in civedit when I noticed that in the Civilizations Rules tab there is a column for "build never" and build often". Out of 16 civs, only Greece, Japan and England have naval units flagged as "build often" So, if you want more navies, flag that option

I too have heard the complaint many times, so it must have some truth to it! I have played games where the AI civs collectively have very few ships at all (even on a continents / islands game); but it seems I have just as often played where AI civs not on "build often" default flag setting have built BBs, destroyers, subs, aircraft carriers, etc. IIRC, I played one game long ago and the Chinese had commissioned 12 aircraft carriers!

In any event -- good tip on the editor flag

Catt

	28-06-2002 04:53									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

maybe different maps (pangea to small island)
should have different unit, civ, etc.. flags?
just a thought

	28-06-2002 05:32									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

There isn't that much reason to build more naval as the TRUE purpose of navies - to secure your own trade routes while threatening others' - is not reflected in the game mechanics.

	28-06-2002 05:51									#6
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Coracle There isn't that much reason to build more naval as the TRUE purpose of navies - to secure your own trade routes while threatening others' - is not reflected in the game mechanics.

after all, our carriers love escorting ships across the atlantic and back.

	28-06-2002 06:06									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by ALPHA WOLF 64 after all, our carriers love escorting ships across the atlantic and back.

Good point, AW64!

But I have to admit that Coracle is quite right about this. The primary purpose of navies until very recently was really to wreak havoc among merchant vessels carrying goods, supplies, and raw materials. It is only for the post-WW2 era that the navies are used in a different way.

However, that is yet another reality vs. gameplay issues we have discussed over and over in other threads. Civ3 is a game, not a reality simulator. I can see no way to implement this navy issue into Civ3, as the game mechanics abstract trade routes (almost) completely (with the exception of blockades, to an extent).

	28-06-2002 08:48									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Carriers are useless. They can hold planes, which might occasionaly (0.00001% of the time) destroy an improvement in an enemy city. But of course, Firaxis didn't let planes bomb ships.

	28-06-2002 09:14									#9
	Remove this text

quote: But of course, Firaxis didn't let planes bomb ships.

DESTROY, not BOMB. You can bomb ships as often as you like, but you can't kill them. This can, however, be changed in the editor.

	28-06-2002 14:07									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

If you change it in the editor planes can sink ships

	29-06-2002 09:14									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

The thing I use navies for most is keeping their navy from bombarding me and landing the occational transport. Carriers are best used to cut off supplies to cities and soften up naval units for attack, of course in the real world that's not at all what happens.

The AI truly has no sense of when to run, however. Recently I was way ahead on one civ who delared war on me, so they sent over gallons and trimes which I shot down with battleships. The funny thing though is that inbetween turns the remaining ships would always dutifully proceed towards their intended landing sights. Even a few times when one was on my border they wouldn't unload right there dispite their enevitable demise.

On the same note, I'd like to know what kind of arrows can break through steel, because one of their trimes (or however you spell them) did damage to my battleship . Or how wooden ships carry armors?

-ben

	29-06-2002 10:46									#12
	Tired of ads?

Interesting thread.

I just deleted a losing game (well, almost whole frickin planet declared war on me) and saw the Indians, Zulu and Babylonians bring considerable naval power at any point of focus that they want to attack.

I was a continental superpower and have my massive navy, 15 ironclads, 20 destroyers, 10 submarines, 5 BB spread on both the East and West coast. I had good coverage, and could bring at least 2 ships to bear at any point, but since my West coast was more like a straight dividing my Civ with the Babylonians, I was using my Western Navy to both defend and attack. It's tough keeping pace with three navies, especially with the weaker naval units in Civ III, a marginal numerical superiority can disappear in a hurry if the probability based battle generator decide against your favour. I've lost 1 BB and 1 Destroyer to 1 enemy Destroyer. That was a consideable amount of naval power lost to just one enemy unit.

What I found strange was that In the 3 engagements I've seen, I lost submarines to Ironclads in each.

	29-06-2002 14:53									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I've seen large AI navies myself, so the AI does build them if it has the time and resources. Battleships, destroyers, Carriers.....I've seen them all and in large numbers.

	29-06-2002 23:39									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

in the upcoming new editor there shall be the ability to place units on the map , including naval units , this should stop the problem .
but when doing so there should be more starting money so that tha civ can keep those naval or other units .

	03-07-2002 03:54									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

-- AI Navies --
On huge maps, I find that the Persians usually have fairly large navies. The Greeks too, if not landlocked or severely decimated by the time modern ships come around.

-- AI Naval Strategies --
I almost always see the AI sending some kind of transport with an escort. Sometimes it's a Transport w/ a Battleship. Sometimes it's a Galley w/ an Ironclad, etc., but they almost always send a gunship along with their troop ships. Although the troopships are usually not carrying a full load.

-- Strategy vs AI Ships --
I've found that the AI will hardly ever attack w/ a damaged ship. Later in the game my personal favorite naval combo is the Battleship & Aegis Cruiser (to see subs). You can use the bombardment of the 2 ships to attack an AI ship which will generally head straight back to the closest port when wounded. Keep following the AI ship and harrying him w/ bombardment until he is down to a couple of HP's then attack w/ the BB.

If you start out close enough to the enemy ship, you can bombard him then use the rest of your movement to move toward his port. He will usually head straight for it--even if he has to pass you, and not engage your healthy ship.

-- Naval Greivances --
I've almost completely stopped making Carriers. I've had Carriers sunk by Ironclads AND Galleys. WTF???
This I do not understand!!!!!!

	03-07-2002 08:19									#16
	Put an end to popups!

just some food for thought...

i had increased the naval units movement space to reflect modern ships speed and range. do yourself a BIG favor and NEVER, EVER give ships the BLITZ trait. it REALLY unbalances them and though the AI uses this new trait, it really wreaks havoc all over. there is nothing more annoying than having a 13 movement from a battleship turn into 13 bombards from a battleship.

in my games i've seen the AI use carriers with planes and i've never found a transport ship that wasn't escorted. i've even seen tactical nukes on subs and battleships. the AI doesn't seem to group them into battle groups or keep them close together for support though.

	03-07-2002 08:24									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I set the movement of all modern naval vessels to " treat all terrain as roads".

It works pretty well, and doesn't really unbalance things.