29-06-2002 06:59									#1
	Monoliths Vanishing Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

this just came up recently: "the monolith has upgraded our unit to XXX status. then it vanished."

i had seen it once before and i thought it was just a fluke because it had only come up once before in so many games. it seems though that maybe a monolith can only upgrade so many units and then it says "alright that's it! i'm vanishing!" .

so does anyone know exactly how many units (or whatever it takes) until a monolith vanishes? basically i have a whole whack of units upgrading before entering into a war, i could maybe alternate monoliths so i could still get an upgrade and keep the old monolith from vanishing for the 2-2-2 FOP i get from it.

and i also find the whole concept of a building just "vanishing" ridiculous...

	29-06-2002 07:06									#2
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I don't know how many but I have seen this feature before and it is a LOT of upgrades before it happens. As for the loss of the 2-2-2, I think by the time this occurs I am just as happy to have it disappear and allow a crawled condensor or mine or worked borehole

	29-06-2002 10:12									#3
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While it generally seems to be a long time into the game before any Monoliths vanish (and I use them religiously, although perhaps not as much as a restlessly pacing AI might visit them), sadly, I have seen some (rarely) vanish disappointingly early in the game. So I think that it might be a (low) probability thing, likely weighted also by the MY (more likely to vanish as time goes on), but perhaps with some triggering event/tech/year introducing a noticable change in odds as it does seem that quite often several will go in the same or adjacent turns or close to it.

Assuming that the data is maintained in a simplistic style (i.e. fixed number of bytes per map location), the allocation of a byte or two (for every tile) just for monolith visit counters seems too unlikely-wasteful to support the necessary data to operate a usage based phase out system. The data could be stored less space-wastefully than that, but from hints left by various firaxis people, I've gotten the impression that much of the data is stored in a big table fixed format, so many bytes per cell style rather than a more database like method of numerous smaller specialized tables.

	29-06-2002 15:43									#4
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IIRC, every time you upgrade a unit at a monolith it has a 1 in 32 chance of vanishing. I've only seen it happen once or twice myself.

	29-06-2002 18:51									#5
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ah, 1 in 32. that would explain why one might vanish after only 2 or 3 units in 1 turn, and not after 12 r-laser rovers in a row.

	29-06-2002 22:30									#6
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in my 2 (ever) games of SMAC, I have lost 2 monoliths (1 per game). first one late in the game and the second early in the game. so me thinks its propability.

	30-06-2002 02:44									#7
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This has never happend to me in my games. But thats easily explained by the 1 in 32 chance.

Edited to make more sense.

	30-06-2002 02:59									#8
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Happens quit often to me...wounder why, I think I lost three or four in my last game.

	30-06-2002 03:00									#9
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quote: Originally posted by waab Happens quit often to me...wounder why, I think I lost three or four in my last game.

Really? Well, I suppose that your lucky enough to be the 1 in 32.

	02-07-2002 02:18									#10
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Happens every once and awhile.... always towards the end of game and almost always a monolith prviously controlled by AI (as mentioned, they visit those monoliths OFTEN).

	07-07-2002 18:32									#11
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Oh yeah. The AI uses monoliths as often as it can - actually one of its few decent strategies. If AI Dee finds a monolith early on, it can practically eliminate her morale penalty throughout the early game.

	11-07-2002 02:56									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yang utilizes this tactic fairly well as the AI, as well. He can be potentially hazardous when rolling up on a monolith near one of your cities with a hoard of impact rovers.

Dave

	11-07-2002 05:07									#13
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I've had a fair number of monoliths vanish.
I strongly suspect it's only the 'popped' monoliths that can vanish, can anyone deny this? Prehaps with a ruins where one or more monolith has vanished.

	11-07-2002 05:29									#14
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I deny that, Blake.

Ruins monoliths frequently vanish. This is particularly true when the AI puts a base in the center of them and them proceeds to run a couple of hundred units through the monoliths. It's not at all uncommon to see the ruins reduced to three or four monoliths in the late game, if AI has had them the entire game.

Of course, you have to let them hang around that long to get to see it happen.

	11-07-2002 09:27									#15
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heh, okay. Then that opens some interesting possibilities... monoliths oft get in the way of my boreholes, so by throwing hundreds of units at the offending monolith it would hopefully vanish and let me drill the borehole

	11-07-2002 11:01									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Blake heh, okay. Then that opens some interesting possibilities... monoliths oft get in the way of my boreholes, so by throwing hundreds of units at the offending monolith it would hopefully vanish and let me drill the borehole

I do this for the same reason, but it is a lot of work for what ends up being little gain in the end.

	11-07-2002 13:03									#17
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...Unless you are allowed to put Stockpile Energy in the Q after all those hundreds units you'll have to build for that purpose...

	11-07-2002 13:27									#18
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Heh. In my case I don't think I'll ever be building units for the sole purpose of elimating a monolith, but I will be focusing my unit upgrading on particular monoliths that I want eliminated....

	12-07-2002 11:38									#19
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Unless you get the WP and also get rich and also put your bases as close together as you can (and even then perhaps), it still takes quite a while before a monolith is the worst tile in your base area - and that morale upgrade takes even longer to outgrow (practically never if you're pushing wealth et al) - so except for maybe in the Ruins (once you have HFs and the max fungus productions), a monolith is always welcome to stay in any of my base areas.

I hardly ever get the WP, because someone else usually wants it more than me, but if you do, it might be worth it to build an early sea former and submerge a monolith just to get that morale kicker on your early ships. It seems that (except maybe for Santi), you can't build a decent ship without a navy yard or bioenhancement center, and it takes a while to get to them. Some weapons and armor can be prototyped as cheaply on a ship as on a land unit, giving you a +2 morale boost all together if you build your protos on boats. Decent ships can be pretty useful - the "marines" attribute is pretty powerful if you've got the best navy (and you can use the sunken monoliths to help keep them in good shape).

	12-07-2002 12:41									#20
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To sink monoliths you don't need the WP, or EnvEcon for that matter.
You just need HEC.... or nothing at all: just staple like crazy, you'll solve your drones problems for some decades, and as a by-product you'll get all the sunken monoliths you want... even sunken ruins!
What? Commerce? Of course you'll have to forget that for the whole game, that's the tradeoff... unless you wait for the SunSpots...

	13-07-2002 08:53									#21
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Sunken monoliths... makes you wonder why it's still above sea-level. perhaps they have floatation devices.

	13-07-2002 09:37									#22
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Nah, they are just *really* tall.

	14-07-2002 05:10									#23
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how do you park an entire ship into the monolith?

	14-07-2002 05:29									#24
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Is that a trick question?

	14-07-2002 05:35									#25
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Matter Editation?

Either that or they can change their size on cue. That must be how you get them to pop out of unity pods...

	14-07-2002 05:45									#26
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quote: Originally posted by TKG Matter Editation? Either that or they can change their size on cue. That must be how you get them to pop out of unity pods...

How would you rather them to be? Mini versions of the original? Like in Red Alert 2 DeeZire? Sh!t, it's so funny to see an Apocalypse tank the size of a car.