01-07-2002 18:05									#1
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Just a note about spies....

One of the more benificial uses is sabatage... I can't tell you how many times a missle base has been destroyed right when I needed it to be gone.

On the hardest setting spying only works for a short time unless you want to stockpile offense/defense.
Most races will fortify after they notice you stealing.
The only problem wtih moving on to another race when one is depleted of builds a strong defense is that chances of you getting spied by them are pretty good so now you have to maintain an offense and defense.
This takes a lot of resourses and you should be careful.
Ofcourse success/failure depends on racial/tech picks.
Just my 2 BC...

	01-07-2002 22:02									#2
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I used to not bother with spies, but when you play at impossible and are non creative, it is required. Early I will put a few up for defence. Soon I will start to have one planet crank them out almost non stop. I will steal everything (and destroy things as well if at war). If I am creative, I will really pile up spies on defence in the mid game, so they can not steal anything that they are missing. I do not recall anyone stealing from me once I got near the 63 max for def spies.

	09-07-2002 00:51									#3
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One of my favorite custom job species were the spy masters. I took everything I could get for my spies, worked towards spy techs, etc.

I found that I never needed to fight a war. I had full spies on all opponents civs, and would keep them on "Espianoge" when at peace. Eventually, they'd get sick of me sucking them dry, and declare war. So I'd switch to "Sabotage" and they'd start losing improvements every turn or so. Eventually, they'd show up asking for peace, offering entire solar systems for me to stop blowing up their school busses. I ended up conquering a majority of the galaxy on a militarily defensive footing the whole time...I never fired a shot in aggression, just let my spies deal with it.

	09-07-2002 01:59									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Orcus Eventually, they'd get sick of me sucking them dry, and declare war. So I'd switch to "Sabotage" and they'd start losing improvements every turn or so. Eventually, they'd show up asking for peace, offering entire solar systems for me to stop blowing up their school busses.

Spying with that type of race is fun. I can not say that I have taken it to that extreme though. As to giving up systems, I am guessing you are talking about v1.2 as it was notorious for giving away systems. I have never had them give me one without my demanding on 1.31 and even then it is often rejected.
What was the game level? I would suspect that you will have less succes at not being attacked at impossible. I have made buffed out spying races and stole like crazy, but I had to fend off attacks and expand. If you are not strong and able to expand you will not get by with stealing and sabatoge. To get those spy picks you have to forgo production or research picks or something useful. What is the full set of picks and game setting? I would like to try it out and see what happens.

	09-07-2002 03:27									#5
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Ok here is a report on one test: Creative (to get all boost) Rep (no friends needed) - Ship att - ship def (if we get past the start we will not need them) +1 research +growth Huge Impossible Org rich 8 players and prewarp.
Around turn 88 sillies show up with 4 systems, me one with 2 planets.
T130 sillies had destroyed my outpost and attacked at HW with 3 ships and I was blockade for a long time, lost a spy.
T134 sent scout and cruiser to attack
t140 dest one frigate with fleet
t144 captured Vulcan dest DD with fleet
T160 had sabatoged 3 items so far (2 sb)
t161 got scanner, spy/agent 30/40%
t164 spy got SB
t181 spy got sb again same on T198
t199 spy/agent 35/45%
t201 refit CA to have fast racks and some mercs attacked 4 ship and got 1
t207 dusted 3 BB with 2 CA while attacking Septum
t212 got 1 ship with fleet, spy got Biosphere
t217 spy got barracks
t218 attack with fleet and got SB, spy got space academy
t222 captured septum
So if this is at all representitive of max sying at impossible in v131, when are they going to cry uncle?
This is what I see in v1.31, the AI almost never asks for peace once war starts on impossible. Note, I had gone on the offensive as well and they still are not asking for peace after many sabatoge acts and two planets lost and a number of ships.

	09-07-2002 07:04									#6
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My favourite race tended to have to take spying penalties so by and large I've always hurried to set up a defensive cordon while rushing for techs to alleviate my espionage penalties (and rushing ships to take out the darloks ).
Anybody know exactly what a larger number of defensive spies does for you? - Quantitatively I mean?
I presume you get some form of diminishing returns coming in somewhere - ie: espionage efforts would almost always fail if an enemy spy group (5 or so spies?) had to get through all 60-odd of my defensive spies - even given the enemys bonuses.
Or, how much harder is it for them to penetrate 60 spies than it is to penetrate 40?


On another note: Orcus is back? THE Orcus?? Welcome back.
You wouldn't remember me though as I didn't really post very often back in your heyday.

	09-07-2002 07:12									#7
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Nothing definitive. I can only say that I got hit with espionage last night when I had 59 spies. When I have the max (63), I have not been hit. So I try to get max ASAP. I had no spy penalities, but no bonus either, just the tech you tend to get. I used to always take -spy, but no longer on impossible. Mainly just leave it at 0.

	09-07-2002 18:07									#8
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On impossible, wars are pretty much fixed once they've started. I've gotten a peace or two occationally, but it has never been offered. And handing over systems to stop spying is unheard of, of course. I kinda suspect theis is v1.2 and a level below imp as well.

	09-07-2002 22:09									#9
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I play 1.3 patch, or whatever is most recent. Generally play on Hard with Large map for exotic species picks, or Impossible Large map with more standard ass-whippin' types.

Race picks for superspies were, most notably, telepathic +20 spies and lowgrav to even the picks. I usually try for +1 food, to get a bit of a boost early on, but I don't remember if that was a part of the SuperSpies or not.

The Sakra were most memorable to me for giving up systems, which of course is awesome. The repulsives never gave me one, but I just kept on sabotaging them to keep them in check, which worked out pretty well.

And they weren't handing over systems to stop spying...they were handing them over for peace.

They actually attacked me pretty frequently. Fortunately, my planetary defenses were upgraded by the various techs I had stolen.

I don't think this type of species is a 100% win by any means, but it is certainly viable. And certainly fun.

	10-07-2002 00:42									#10
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Thanks for the post Orcus. BTW 1.31 is the latest version, not much difference with it and 1.3. It was 1.2 that was silly. I had races declare war on me and neither of us fought and a few turns later they offered me a system for peace. That and Creative was only 6 picks.
There is a huge difference in how the AI plays between Hard and Impossible, so I will go with Hard for the test and see if any one offers me any systems for peace. As I said, I do not every recall that happening on impossible regardless of race traits for tactics. The game I just race with superspies, no one ever even contacted me, once they declared war. I would bust 30 to 40 ships in some battles and take colony after colony, not a peep. That was Huge/Impossible and I was repulsive, so we will see.

	10-07-2002 02:00									#11
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Ok, preliminary report. Large map, Hard 8 players. Race Tele +20spy -lowG +1 food -GC LHW.
Not easy to play even on hard. War soon after contact with Psilons and they were far ahead on tech. Finally ousted them and they never contacted me during the war even when down to their last planet. War with Humans after I refused demand. Only one planet in my home system other than mine. I now have the 4 systems, but three are barely started, no defences or much production. I have stolen a number of useful stuff including very early (missile bases). It wil be a stuggle, but can be won. 20-30 more turns and then it will be easier, but by then Tele is not very useful. I say that as the hard part from now on will be to best the defences, if you do that what difference does it make if I am tele or not. I guess the assimilation is good, but I would rather have those picks for research or production. So anyway it does not seem to me that in 1.31 hard or impossible, you are likely to get any systms bequeathed to you or even get peace at all if you wait for them to offer peace. I just have never seen it.

	10-07-2002 02:22									#12
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The only race you mentioned were the psilons. They always begin builiding a defensive spy network. Also, I think they seem to have the least tolerance for spying.
Not that I have seen anyone offering up systems in v 1.31 eigther but what bad luck to meet the toughest race right off the bat.
The only thing I have ever had offered to me in v 1.31 is tribute and tech. This was on impossible.

Just my 2 cents

	10-07-2002 04:18									#13
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Yup, I did not like seeing them so soon. The good news is no creatives left to worry about. Elerians were next up and I whacked them down to a few systems I could not reach and offer them peace and they were happy to get it. Humans then and they are gone. Meks out, someone else did it. War now with Klacs, they were largest at the time and I had not yet been nominated. They are now not nominated and I am on the left (most pop). Gnolams and I have had research treaty for some time. I got three good colony leaders CHug/Yott and Xantus and three decent officers and now Loknar. Just a matter of time now. It was rough, but it is fun to blow up stuff and steal with impunity. No offers have come for peace as you might have guessed. Still got to wonder if it was a 1.2. I can not say about 1.3 as I do not recall it. The readme mention little difference.The other race is Saks and I won't bother withcapture and transporting them as it will be pointless. Likely will just take the vote to some work after one more race goes out. I want to give the max chance for a surrender offer. Oh, that is what happened to one race they surrendered to the klacs and that is what put them in front for so long.

	10-07-2002 19:02									#14
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Psilons are a bad break, they are always a problem for the superspies. Klacs suck pretty bad too, their xenophobic tendencies are very pronounced.

Odd that nobody's offered you systems, I'm positive I had latest patch (didn't even start playing until after they stopped patching). I think they may have done it because they didn't have anything else to offer me, having no money and no tech I hadn't already stolen.

Dunno, try again unless it's boring the bujeezus out of you. As I said, those are some nasty neighbors to have. I recall the Bulrathi (non-repulsive), Sakra (also non-repulsive), Meklar, and Alkari all following the same pattern...

1> I would steal about four techs (fewer later on)
2> they'd get mad and demand something from me (which I refuse), declare war
3> I switch from steal tech to blowstuffup mode
4> after about five or six buildings going poof, they ask for peace, if they didn't offer anything I told them to piss off
5> Their fleet arrives and gets ground to dust under my starbase and planet defense
6> more stuff gets blown up
7> They come back asking for peace again, this time offering something. If it was a pile of money or a system, I took it and went back to stealing tech. Repeat.

	10-07-2002 20:33									#15
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I suspect that I would have lost the game if it was on impossible. I was in such a hole for a long time. I would drop the food boost and take production or at least +1 research. A tele needs to get a capitol ship up and running before your neighbor can improve its defences. A starbase that is naked can be be beat by one missile cruiser. If they get heavy armor or worse a missile base you will need two cruiser, maybe more. The bad luck of getting Psilons, means they are very likely to have those improvemnts very soon. Especially once war is declared. My low production meant slow research as well. It was so bad, the the Gnolams stole from me before I could get enough spies in place to stop them. If you do not have the spy techs and they do, you are vulnerable. I would rather have +3 for spy than +6 so you could take RHW/LHW. Having a standard HW hurts a tele (well anyone) as you can not get off to the fast start. I had only one planet in my system other than mine. So I had 6/12 pop start. You can not do much with that.

	10-07-2002 22:08									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Orcus 1> I would steal about four techs (fewer later on) 2> they'd get mad and demand something from me (which I refuse), declare war 3> I switch from steal tech to blowstuffup mode 4> after about five or six buildings going poof, they ask for peace, if they didn't offer anything I told them to piss off 5> Their fleet arrives and gets ground to dust under my starbase and planet defense 6> more stuff gets blown up 7> They come back asking for peace again, this time offering something. If it was a pile of money or a system, I took it and went back to stealing tech. Repeat.

Orcus you must lead a charmed life. I have played hundreds of Moo2 games, 95% or more since 1.31. In fact nearly 100 this year alone all but a few at Hard or Impossible and have not seen this behavior after 1.2. I will admit, I have not used spying in many until very recently, so I am not prepared to dismiss the possiblity, only I do not have much hope.
My std events is :
1 - steal and soon get caught. 50/50 they demand stop the rest they decalre war.
2 - I may switch to sabatoge, but not if they have stuff I need and I am not going after them at this time.
3 - no matter how much I steal or destroy they never even contact me (regardless if I am rep or not).
4 - they attack and sometimes I defeat them and others they just block me until I get a fleet that can defeat them. If I have a new planet or outpost it will be lost.
5 - I take system after system, wreck ship after ship and never hear from them. If they are all within reach I eliminate them, if not I offer peace to go on to someone else. They often get eliminated by someone else soon.

I would say that spying can be fun, but I will submit that those picks are better spent on prodcution and science. Wait to get the spy techs and crank out lots of spies and then you can steal anyway. Once I get techs up through cyber link, I will be able to steal or sabatoge and still have those picks to use to get to this point much sooner. I think a +6 picks for spying on impossible level is going to put you in a very big hole, unless you do get those surrender systems and soon. Many races will just show up with a fleet you can not stop with their extra picks. Remember at imposible the AI can get up to +25 picks. That means they may spend 35 picks. That makes them very strong and out the gate with a vengence. If the more aggressive ones are near you, it could be fatal. In all of this I am using straight up play, no cheats, no editor, no refit ploys. These will not impact surrendering, but can keep one alive and prosperous when they should not be.

	10-07-2002 22:13									#17
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BTW the way lest there be any confusion, I am not challenging any thing you have said. I take it as gospel. My experiences are just that and not the rule of the game. A meer sampling of a very long continum.

	10-07-2002 22:18									#18
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I have to agree with vmxa. With 1.31 impossible, having played more games than I can keep count of, I have yet to see an AI coming for peace no matter how hard I stop them. I have very occassionally managed to get a peace contacting them myself after giving them a severe beating - but a peace is the best, they certainly don't throw in techs or systems.

I suggest you check if you really use 1.31. It sure as heck doesn't sound like that to me.

	10-07-2002 22:31									#19
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Most of the Cd's had 1.2 on them, so you would need to install the patch. I rolled one out to Cd with the patch on it as I have installed so many times. I had many systems (three at home now and 4 others at other sites) and then will reinstall the OS from time to time so it just saved time.
I meant to ask you if this worked withl less spying picks or did you need the full +6? IOW it will be easier to try with a better race that had +3 or even 0 for spying. For a long time I use -spying, but not anymore. I no longer like -spy, lowG I would rather have Rep, since the AI hates you anyway. The only place you can tell for sure is at load time. When the gate swings out to choose load, etc, below it is the version number.

	10-07-2002 23:04									#20
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Thanks for not screaming "BS", that happens all the time on diablo forum... I'm certain it was under the recent patch (because you getting trade/research treaties is like pulling teeth in recent patch, and it was), and I'm certain it was hard diff (always hard instead of impossible when doing exotics), although I must admit it could have been a medium map instead of large. I think it was large, but not positive.

I don't doubt you haven't made it happen again, either... I've only ever flown that way once myself, out of maybe six tries (it was the second go). I usually play troopy or buildy species, but occasionally try to exploit the hell out of one aspect of the game just to see if it's enough on its own. Democratic Trader +BC species was really hard, for example.

I see one difference in our approaches...I only ever engaged in offensive military action against repulsives. Even if the others were at war with me, which they often were, I didn't send fleets at them. Towards endgame, the lower eschelon of remaining aliens did get "absorbed"...usually in a matter of a few rounds, of course. But early through mid-game, I just stood there and took it if they came at me.

The antarans ignored me until late, as I was relatively small. Once I was larger they started hammering away.

Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure now it must have been a medium map, I never got attacked by any of the massive fleets I'd expect from a larger map. Then again, maybe their ships were blowing up left and right...

Anyway, I look forward to seeing if you can duplicate this. Or at least enjoy the superspies while trying.

	10-07-2002 23:44									#21
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Ok, no attacking. So the only reseason to pick tele was for the spy bonus. I may change my choices for research then to ensure I have fighter garrison and planetary missile bases if I am to turtle. I guess I better look to see who other than sillies can be respulsive. I see why you may want +food is you are not going to capture planets. Expansion to new planets will be very tough. Hummmm.

	10-07-2002 23:50									#22
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Telepathy came in handy later for the absorbtion of the little guys, that would have been very difficult without it. So many wasted resources on troops...techs aren't a problem, but still...

Anyway, races known to me to end up repulsive: Trills, Sakra, Bulrathi, Darlok...maybe others, those I know for sure. Won't happen as often on hard as on impossible, of course.

	11-07-2002 00:10									#23
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A note about game versions

When you load MOO II on the first screen look at the bottom right. It will tell you what version you are playing.
Like mine says:
V 1.31

To clear up any confusion.

	11-07-2002 00:12									#24
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Also a note about trade/research treaties.
Most races will not take them until a few turns after you meet. In fact I can't remember any taking anything.. they always tell me no in some manner.
Just wait 8-20 turns and pop it on them.. They will take it unless your losing bad.

	11-07-2002 02:58									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Orcus Telepathy came in handy later for the absorbtion of the little guys, that would have been very difficult without it. So many wasted resources on troops...techs aren't a problem, but still... Anyway, races known to me to end up repulsive: Trills, Sakra, Bulrathi, Darlok...maybe others, those I know for sure. Won't happen as often on hard as on impossible, of course.

The later it is in the game the easier it is for me to do anything I want, so I think tele must be used very early or don't pick, just so you know.
In the current game (2nd today) only Saks are repulsive so that means no conquest by your guidelines as they have not declare war on me so far. I am now at war with Klacs and Meks. So, how do I get them to feel they should deal with me when I have been able to frame someone else for the sabatoge so often? Anyway I have had scores of turns with war and many act of destruction, including the few ships they have sent, but no response so far. This is the race you mentioned +6 spy etc. I even got super breaks on leaders as I have two scientist (one more I did not hire) and dig this Matrix. Starts with 45% sci 45% spirit 6 to telepath and some for assination. So I am a real super spy race now. 2-3 consecutive turns has me sabatoging both races at once. They do not seem to mind at all. It is turn 262.

	11-07-2002 03:51									#26
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Wow got Gov Vott right after last post 75 finance 75 sci megawealth 37 research. Now have Urro/Kirsus/Matrix/Vott all sci/research types. Emo had shown up as well. I had to break your rule as I noticed Meks were down to one planet and a fleet was headed its way. Since I had sabatoge all defences and had just made my BB, I sent it over to mind control. They were not going to surrender anyway. In fact since it is HW they could not. Which reminds me, in the past I often would demand systems and see most were unsurrenderable. Anyway I would be happen if they even contacted me to just offer peace, to see it work. I am about to give up the ghost after this game. Iwould do the same to the klacs as they are down to two planets and no defences, but they are out of reach. Someone will get them after all of my work. I have stolen nearly everything that has been learned.

	11-07-2002 06:08									#27
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Well it is over now, no luck, no offers. I eliminated a few races when they were on the verge of going out, but did not really go after anyone. With the smaller map and the great leaders, I got so strong that at the end I was blowing up the second place Saks stuff and they never even complained, let alone go to war. Took down Orion and accepted the vote. Even for a Hard level this was an easy game. I had gotten a super officer and then of course Loknar and his Avenger along with X-armor, so it was pointless to go on.

	11-07-2002 15:44									#28
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You didn't see any begging for peace, did you?

	11-07-2002 21:15									#29
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Not even a hint. I played Moo1 on impossible last night and the AI would ask for peace all the way to the end. I always felt the final patch for Moo2 was too rigid. Even when it is being pasted, it does not ask for peace. You can take all planets and be sitting on its last one with a monster fleet and not be contacted. At least that is my experience. That may change at the lowest level such as Easy, I can not say.

Edit: That was not clear. I do not mean the last planet for the game, just that race. It will ask for peace when it is the last one, but not offer anything.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 11-07-2002 at 21:41

	12-07-2002 00:06									#30
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Well, that's rather my experience as well. One of the thing SMAC did well was how meek the AIs would become when you stomped them - I really liked to hear'em beg.