02-07-2002 02:54									#1
	Droids to use or not to use Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I wonder how others view androids? The people that I have seen mention them seem to use them for food production. I do not use them and was interested in seeing if I am making a mistake.
The one place I see them as useful is on a planet that can not farm. This could be a problem if you are not able to get food to them because of blockade or lack freighters or even food production. Really by the time you get droids the only real issue is likely to be a blockade. Elsewise droids prodcue +3 of any of the three resources, same as a citizen. Then they mention all of the boost that get them to x food per turn. Hum do not those boost apply to citizens as well? If so, then you have less production from a droid as the can not benefit from moral bonuses. They also do not generate any income and citizens do (.5 bc unless Klac then 1 BC, ignoring any pluses picked). The maint is the same as citizens, IIRC. Then you hav the issue of the need to spend money to buy them or industry to create them.
To me it only makes sense in a very narrow set of circumstances. Did I miss any factors (again).

	02-07-2002 03:15									#2
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I never use them. If they were useful, by that time they are not. Did I make sense?

	02-07-2002 03:17									#3
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Well I put my foot in my mouth again, it seems. I have created a test bed to try things and put one pop on food. This yields 3 for pop .6 for moral for total of 4. This planet had no structures. It was a splinter colony with 3 pop. Move all to ind and bought a droid farmer.
Food now with only the droid is 3 for farmer and 3 for droid bonus= 6. So with all structures for food it came to 16. So at the start they are better. Now I went to a planet that had all structures built, including morale ones. With 1 citizen farming it is:

4 farmer--------------- 4 farmer (droid now)
- droid bonus--------- 3
1 astro----------------- 1
2 weather--------------2
4.9 morale--------------0
2 hydro------------------2
4 sub---------------------4
------------------------------------------------------------------
18-------------------------16
So it depends, it seems they are only siuationally valuable.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 02-07-2002 at 04:57

	02-07-2002 17:48									#4
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Don't forget the tax factor!

	02-07-2002 21:57									#5
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I mentioned that in the originlal post, no income from droids. This is painful if Klacs.

	02-07-2002 23:30									#6
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I mentioned that in the originlal post, no income from droids. This is painful if Klacs.

Please explain? Klacs?

	03-07-2002 02:51									#7
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quote: Originally posted by RPMisCOOL Please explain? Klacs?

Hum did you read my first post ? The Klac have a racial bonus that lets them earn 1 BC per worker, instead .5 BC like others. That is one of the reasons they are more productive than most. That is why some will concentrate on pop building before factories with this race as pop does not pay the .5 bc pollution that factories do, hence they net .5 more than a factory would.
10 fac = 10 bc with no mods - 5 for pollution = 5 net
10 pop = 10 bc no mods - 0 = 10.
This is why in Moo1 if you are the Klacs you can run over the top of the others early on. In Moo2 you can get +P to match up.

	09-07-2002 23:20									#8
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I'm a big fan of android workers. In particular, I use them on the more wretched planets I come across. Folks often forget that they have Tolerance as a trait, which makes them as golden as conquered silicoids. Here's what I do...

1. Found colony on rich/ultrarich toxic crap planet.
2. Buy a missile base/autofactory as usual, then an android worker.
3. Transport the original colonist to a nearby non-toxic world.
4. Set the droids to replicating themselves.

Before long, the whole planet is packed with these guys. They require no food, so can't be starved by blockade, and don't use freighters supporting an entire population. Granted, they don't make any money, but that's not their job, as such no worries about setting up money buildings. They make ships, then more ships, and that's that.

Note that if I've conquered the silicoids, I use them as androids instead

	10-07-2002 00:27									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yup you can do that and I have, to see what it was like. I am just too lazy to use that tactic. By the time I have them, if I have them, it does not matter what I do. I will likely not colonize a toxic planet at this point in the game, just destroy everything, even if it is UR. I do not bother to move conquered pop around, except for SubT types and then one per colony is enough.
I am not saying that there is any thing wrong with the tactic, just that any tactic is fine at that stage of the game. I tend to race for Star Gates at around this time so I can defend against massive fleets.

	12-07-2002 19:14									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Hum did you read my first post ? The Klac have a racial bonus that lets them earn 1 BC per worker, instead .5 BC like others. That is one of the reasons they are more productive than most. That is why some will concentrate on pop building before factories with this race as pop does not pay the .5 bc pollution that factories do, hence they net .5 more than a factory would. 10 fac = 10 bc with no mods - 5 for pollution = 5 net 10 pop = 10 bc no mods - 0 = 10. This is why in Moo1 if you are the Klacs you can run over the top of the others early on. In Moo2 you can get +P to match up.

Sorry Vmxa1,

Sometimes I get confused when you start talking about BCs and production in the same breath. I realize that you can use BCs to buy things early, or am I not understanding a fundamental property of the game here?
R:PM

	12-07-2002 22:15									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

When you use money to subsitute for producton, be aware of the sliding cost. The cost is:
0-10% = 10BC for each unit
11-50% = 5BC
51-100% = 2BC
This is why it pays to wait a turn or two to buy items in production. Once you get past the 10% bar, it is cheaper. You see that all the time when buying a marine barracks on a new colony. It cost 240 bc to buy on turn 1, on turn 2, it can drop to around 176.
So the barracks is 60 unit item
0-10% =6*10 = 60bc
11-50% =24*5 = 120bc
51-100% =30*2 = 60bc
--------------- 60 ------ 240
So if you hold off till the you have at least 11% done, you pay appx 176bc cost to buy. If you get pass 50% it saves a ton of money. In this case you pay no more than 60bc to buy. So I like to hold off buying items unless I have unlimited funds or I am under pressure at that colony. Since I am usually somewhere in between those two conditions, I will often buy the first few items at full cost to get the colony rolling.

	12-07-2002 23:27									#12
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Okay, no I understand the cost factor...sort of noticed that naturally.

QUOTE]The Klac have a racial bonus that lets them earn 1 BC per worker, instead .5 BC like others. That is one of the reasons they are more productive than most.[/QUOTE]

So this is due to the extra cash...doesn't seem that it overcomes the sliding costs versus no poduction lost to pollution.

How does extra BC make one more "productive" than most?

	13-07-2002 00:46									#13
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They have +1 P and +1 F as std picks at impossible they get even more as a rule. It allows them to have fewer workers on food and their workers product more then std workers so they have more resources to use for whatever they choose. They also have a resistance to assimilation, that makes them not so easy to use as slaves.

	13-07-2002 02:50									#14
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Okay, that clears it up. I wasn't making the connection between $ and production which is good because there is none. However, I thought I remembered that the Klacks get +1 production.

	13-07-2002 03:02									#15
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I think they would be very fearsome, but that Uncreative is a killer. After the early game, it will be hard to overcome for the AI, it is hard for real people to overcome it. It may be the worst pick in the game.

	13-07-2002 03:17									#16
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Yeah I'd make Uncreative -10. I have tried it a few times and it's real tough.

	14-07-2002 20:16									#17
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If u should use droids? The answer depends how interesting a game u want. Fact of the matter is that first i dropped playing with creative cos that made winning no fun.. and then i dropped using droids.. for the same reason. that is how i do it:

good for us the droids are on the same research field as research boosts.. u go for labs first.. as soon as u can for supercomp.. u will probably need the cyber link for holding back spies.. or you might not.. it is only 1500 you can research it. when you get autolab it gives you a HUGE boost in research.. ok.. a bit less in tiny galaxy but droids are already next. geting them quickly only requires a determined gameplan.

after u get droid workers, you will fill ALL your planets with population in 15 turns.. u only need lots of transports to help out those bordercolonies.. after that there is nothing stoping u cos bots dont use droids and u can beat any race's production at least 3:1

choose carefully what racepicks u make- choose them according to strategy.. u need a good research race for this strategy- the idea is to compensate for the production when u get droids.. being small and insignificant the first 2/3 of the game is fun when u can wipe them out in the last 1/3

	14-07-2002 20:17									#18
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oh and i forgot.. droids are tolerant, so u dont have to be subterrainian to max out planets

	14-07-2002 22:59									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Alphard If u should use droids? The answer depends how interesting a game u want. Fact of the matter is that first i dropped playing with creative cos that made winning no fun.. and then i dropped using droids.. for the same reason. that is how i do it:[/QUUOTE] I do not understand all the post about Creative being easy. It is just another pick and at imposible, it does not make you a winner. I submit that Telepathic is the "easy" pick. You give up 8 picks to get the priviledge of not having to choose tech at each field. Yes in the mid game and later you are strong, but I am strong at those junctures regardless of my picks or I am dead. [QUOTE] Originally posted by Alphard after u get droid workers, you will fill ALL your planets with population in 15 turns.. u only need lots of transports to help out those bordercolonies.. after that there is nothing stoping u cos bots dont use droids and u can beat any race's production at least 3:1

I think I proved that you will have less production than with normal colonist in the end, due to morale boost. In any event, why bother at this stage with it. The game is in control by the time I get driods, unless I beelined for them (never happen).

quote: Originally posted by Alphard being small and insignificant the first 2/3 of the game is fun when u can wipe them out in the last 1/3

I can do that with any race I choose. Mind you, I am not saying that you are wrong, only that it is not better or required. Well, I am saying you are wrong about the creative. It is fun and any race will be boring after a while. Thanks for the thoughts, but I do not see anything compelling about your arguement.

	15-07-2002 09:05									#20
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ok i see you did not get my point. i do not argue that droids are more useful in the endrun. cos they are not. even if they were AS valuable as normal population they would be a liability cos they cannot be shifted from, say, prod to research..

however the droids main power is how fast they can be produced. usually terraforming and building all planets up takes forever, but with droids.. i guess you have to play with these settings yourself to see the sheer power of these tactics.. do a:

lithovore, artifacts, democracy (i usually take repolsive as minus + crap from beam attack and defence.. i usually waste most of the map with missiles with this race). with this race your research on your first turn already should be 60RP. (you might want to replace the artif with research +1 on huge map). go for labs and supercomp as soon as possible and after cyber and autolab + droid worker after that.. you just have to do minimal research in other fields cos your missile destroyers can keep anyone back at this stage.

its easiest wth a huge map.. with a tiny one i have to be a bit more clever cos computer players try to steal much in the beginning.. thats the only problem.. so i go for cyber-link asap. but even here you have a good start as u r lithovore and have a decent production..

i repeat just 1 more time.. droids will only rule when used MASSIVELY.

all games on v1.31.

	15-07-2002 10:38									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Alphard lithovore, artifacts, democracy (i usually take repolsive as minus + crap from beam attack and defence.. i usually waste most of the map with missiles with this race). with this race your research on your first turn already should be 60RP. (you might want to replace the artif with research +1 on huge map). go for labs and supercomp as soon as possible and after cyber and autolab + droid worker after that.. you just have to do minimal research in other fields cos your missile destroyers can keep anyone back at this stage.

Thanks for the post. Just for the record, I understood your point and did not disagree with it. I just said why bother? You may or may not, it does not matter. I say this as droids are 3500 rp tech. I do not rush for them, but rather do the other ones and in fact they are the last 3500 rp I work on and often skip it for advance city planning and come back later. Since I figure I will not be building any more planets from scratch or dam few. I will be landing on someone elses planets and they will have a good size pop or I will just kill everyone. I have enough to do with out tracking droids. The game is just a formality at this point. It may have a lot of action to go, but no matter what I do I am going to win. By the time I get to the 3500 tech, I want HEF and Plasma Cannons (if I did not get phasors). I need war items, not production. I have played Liv/Dems and usually if huge map take +1R instead of AHW, since the +R is for all colonies. In a smaller map the AHW may be better. I like the Rep as well and use -GC and -SD, but any will do.
BTW you will not get 60rp on day 1. If you stick all workers to SCI, but one you get 53 RP. 8/12 pop for med planet. 1 worker, 7 sci. 7*3=21 + 7*2 (AHW)=14 + 17.7 (dem) (21+14=35*50%=17.5) grand total 53.
Again, everything you said is correct and can be done. I just do not see any need to do it. I would also have to make a bunch of freighters, which I am loathed to do. I make only as many as I need to feed planets that can not do it yet (non Liv) and an occasional movement of pop. I sometime send Subt races to all the planets, not always, for the same reason I do not use droids. I just makes work for me, I already have the game on the down hill slope by then.
PS
If you are a Dem you might want to go for the Gov boost before some of the 3500 stuff. You get the 75% for R/P a big boost right then and goes into effect instantly.

	18-07-2002 10:51									#22
	Got spare money?

well-- yes.. all valid stuff there... i guess it depends on the strategy one picks.. i have played with this in multy and has worked for me.. cos i usually only build beam ships with moleculatronic and its right after the droids.. so this line of research is good for me.. might not be for others.. enough said..

	28-07-2002 19:24									#23
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If you pick Unification, it's a good time to use droids since morale boosters don't do anything anyway.

	23-08-2002 17:06									#24
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I always use them: they are content and eat nothing. It's even better if you use them on planets which allow only little or no food production this way you don't have to ship food around and you can produce them faster than the pop will grow naturally which means you can go on full production earlier as when you wait that a new inhabitant will be born.

	29-08-2002 14:10									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Not sure if this have been mentioned but morale actually does affect android WORKERS. THis is great if your race is unification, especially a custom unlike klackons who gets the production bonus. Also, computer don't use androids so if you rush for androids, sell the tech to the all the computer, and you can easily catch back up on the techs that you sacrificed to get androids.

Generally, if i manage to get android early enough, I'll have all my science planet start producing android workers with any unused production, and I can a lot of androids that way without losing anything except maybe some measly BCs. Self-replicating androids is great, but I won't do this until I've set up all my production buildings, since the fastest you can get is 1 android/turn.

It really depends on how you play, but androids can be incredibly powerful if used properly. It's the reason I have to say the most powerful hero in the game is probably the one that gives you android tech (Andromeda?): You get all three androids and +% to labor, farming, and science to boot. Or if you somehow find a better hero than that, boot him and keep the tech *cackle*.