02-07-2002 06:39									#1
	Poll: Should there be expanded Diplomacy in the XP? Increase Your PM Length

Although I do feel that diplomacy has been substantially improved in Civ3, I can't help but feel that there are a number of options missing. Some of them were options in Civ2 and SMAC, whilst some occured in games like CtP 1 and 2:
These options might be:

1) Unit Trading and Land Trading.

2) Protectorates.

3) Improved military alliances. (Where you can station units in allied cities and fortresses etc.)

4) Fully-fledged alliances. (Share research, resources, and trade income).

5) Science and Environment Pacts.

I think that including these options would greatly enhance the depth of the diplomatic experience, especially with MP! Please let me know what you think!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	02-07-2002 07:59									#2
	Tired of ads?

1)YES! Definately.

2.They are already in through MPP's

3.No satationing in other cities, but allies should be able to repair your units for a price(like Civ2)

4.Would anyone ever want to sign an alliance like that? You could just make gifts of that stuff to the AI.

5.What is an Enviroment Pact? like can't produce more than x amount of pollution? If so, yes. Science pact, that is alreaady covered sort of. I never could see the AI agreeing to something like that.

Some nice ideas.

	02-07-2002 08:22									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hi King,

I just thought that I should explain things a bit more:

1) Land trades would be either trading land squares for land squares, or purchasing land outright for cash, resources, units or technology (Think of the Louisiana Purchase!)

2) Protectorates in SMAC were different from the MPP. In a protectorate, if my memory has not failed me, a smaller civ essentially decides to give up it's freedom and become a part of your, larger and stronger civ. Those cities, however, still retain their former nationality and any city specific civ-traits!

3) This was one of the features I missed most between SMAC and Civ3! If nothing else, I'd love to see this come back! I also feel that allies should be able to repair their units in your cities!

4) I'm thinking more that, as allies, you will be much stronger than going it alone! It would incorporate the features of a military alliance, whilst virtually doubling eachothers research rates (plus one of you can research one thing, whilst the other civ researches something else!) Also, you are less likely to run out of strategic resources and/or money!!

5) The environment pact would involve both of you agreeing to reduce Civ-Wide pollution by X% before y turns has elapsed! This can be done by looking at the number of pollution icons you have in each city, and then changing production/improvements to bring this down!
Science pacts allow you to share research infrastructure, as well as an automatic swapping of all newly discovered techs between pact members!

6) I thought of another diplomacy option I'd like to see: Multilateralism. Essentially, you can intervene between two combatants to enforce peace, or sign diplomatic agreements with multiple civs at the SAME TIME! (Think Kyoto protocol or NATO)

7) Another diplomatic option that is missing is the "Cease Fire". Just one short of Peace, this will allow you to remain in a state of "Cold War" as your civs have merely "ceased hostilities". To differentiate Cease Fire from Peace. Territorial violations, pillaging and even sneak attacks should be achievable without a loss of standing with other civs!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker

	03-07-2002 00:41									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Absolutely, is there even a debate?

Unit trading/gifting needs to be in.

Call off your dogs/ send out your dogs should be a diplo option to help stop and start wars between civs.

A CTP style science treaty where you share beakers toward the next advance would open up loads of new strategies.

	03-07-2002 01:02									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

yes. i should be able to trade units at the very least. selling 10 tanks to a human may be more wise than giving them oil and having them build 50 when your not looking.

i should also be able to trade workers if they are in ANY city, not just my capital. perhaps have it list them by city.

i'd like to see more treaties, but im doubtful i will.

also, a ROP shouldnt allow them to terraform my land (ie plant forests). perhaps a enw treaty would allow them to IMPROVE your land. this way i could pay an industrialist civ to build me a rail system in half the time it would take me to do it

	03-07-2002 02:59									#6
	Re: Poll: Should there be expanded Diplomacy in the XP? Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker 1) Unit Trading and Land Trading. 2) Protectorates. 3) Improved military alliances. (Where you can station units in allied cities and fortresses etc.) 4) Fully-fledged alliances. (Share research, resources, and trade income). 5) Science and Environment Pacts.

1) unit yes, land... uhm.. that would kill the whole culture-idea
2) MPP againt ONE opponent? i'd love to have that. i hate if i protect myself against a big neighbor and my allies suddenly get me caught in 3 other wars
3) fortresses is already possible... cities could be dangerous... what is, if you declare war and you units already occupy the city?
4) great idea! who profits how much?
5) together with no.2 my favorite... increase science rate by 25%? ... but again: how to decide what to research?

	03-07-2002 03:20									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker Protectorates in SMAC were different from the MPP. In a protectorate, if my memory has not failed me, a smaller civ essentially decides to give up it's freedom and become a part of your, larger and stronger civ. Those cities, however, still retain their former nationality and any city specific civ-traits!

Hm, this sounds like an interesting idea. I would definitely like to see it in Civ. Is there a difference between this and a full alliance? Do you get to control the protectorate? What about a federation of states on equal footing?

I'm always for more diplomatic options, though I think that the human player can use them much better than any AI.

	03-07-2002 04:05									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hi jsw363,

The way I understand it, the full alliance is akin to a federation or Commonwealth, where all parties have an equal (or almost) standing. A protectorate might be closer to a Hegemony, i.e: A "first amongst equals" alliance.
Anyway, hope that helps.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

Last edited by The_Aussie_Lurker on 03-07-2002 at 04:11

	03-07-2002 04:26									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I generally like the ideas, though some people have made good ponts about other solutions to the same problem. My big thing is that we should be able to have one way agreements in terms of ROP etc. IE, you might buy thr right to roam around one civs land, but not return the favour. At the moment we can not do this.

	03-07-2002 06:01									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Science treaty sounds interesting, but perhaps would work better if it was just arranged casually between humans. Would be nice if the AI could be made to handle it though. Imagine telling the AI: "I'll give you flight, in return you research advanced flight and give it to me while I spend the time researching something else. You both essentially get two technologies for the time of one, and still advance up the tech tree towards more stuff rather than dead ends.

	03-07-2002 11:19									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hi SabreWolf,
I don't think that having units of an ally in your city would be a huge problem, but only if it was clear within the diplomacy system that you could NEVER go from Alliance to War straight away! If you end an alliance, you should go to peace, at which point any units the Civ has in your cities would get expelled, either to just outside the city radius, or even to the nearest of his own cities!
At least, thats how it SHOULD work!!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	03-07-2002 17:15									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In SMAC, if you wanted to break a Brotherhood PAct (alliance), you had to cancel the agreement diplomatically and then all your units were removed from their territory. You were still at peace until you then attacked

	03-07-2002 18:16									#13
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I disagree with the Environmental Pact. I'd never, ever sign one.

I'm not damaging my reputation for something like pollution. It's silly.

The other features are good.

	03-07-2002 18:34									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by dunk999 I disagree with the Environmental Pact. I'd never, ever sign one. I'm not damaging my reputation for something like pollution. It's silly. The other features are good.

it's inconvenient for the game, that's true (same as declaring war with active ROP and the AI never forgiving you), but the earths future is important... and it should be in the game too.

e.g. my present game india is at war with russia and doesn't clean up their mess... so i keep losing my nice grasslands and plains... my mess is cleared in the same move... (btw: solution: i overran the indians and cleared it all up )

	03-07-2002 21:55									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX yes. i should be able to trade units at the very least. selling 10 tanks to a human may be more wise than giving them oil and having them build 50 when your not looking. i should also be able to trade workers if they are in ANY city, not just my capital. perhaps have it list them by city. i'd like to see more treaties, but im doubtful i will. also, a ROP shouldnt allow them to terraform my land (ie plant forests). perhaps a enw treaty would allow them to IMPROVE your land. this way i could pay an industrialist civ to build me a rail system in half the time it would take me to do it

hi ,


, we have been asking that for a long , long time , .....

there should be the option to sell a unit either with or without the tech .

a port or barracks should help to fix damaged units from your allies , or do so at a certain cost , even if you are not in the war involved !

and there should be an other building like a port , maybe a naval shipyard should be put in , .....

have a nice day

	03-07-2002 22:17									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: e.g. my present game india is at war with russia and doesn't clean up their mess...

I always just get a RoP with the civ and go clean it up for them

	03-07-2002 22:27									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf it's inconvenient for the game, that's true (same as declaring war with active ROP and the AI never forgiving you), but the earths future is important... and it should be in the game too. e.g. my present game india is at war with russia and doesn't clean up their mess... so i keep losing my nice grasslands and plains... my mess is cleared in the same move... (btw: solution: i overran the indians and cleared it all up )

There also should be a way to graduate the amount of pollution included in an environmental pact. That way it wouldn't be Kyoto all at once. You could ease into more stringent restrictions on pollution gradually.

One sided arrangements should also be possible which allow access to another civs ports and cities, but deny them access to yours. I think that the AI is way too proud; they never give in, even when it's in their best interest. They need to be HUMBLED!

	07-07-2002 02:35									#18
	Re: Poll: Should there be expanded Diplomacy in the XP? Got spare money?

quote: 1) Unit Trading and Land Trading.

Land trading should definitely be in, but, while I liked unit trading in Civ2, it may need some rethinking.

For example, I could, in Civ 2, give 10 tanks to a civilization. But what if that civ did not have all the technology needed?

Would a country stuck in the Middle Age be able to use my panzers? Or would they learn the necessary technology by reverse engineering? I give them a battleship, while they are just learning navigation. They would have no clue about it, nor would they have the necessary resources to repair it.

quote: 2) Protectorates.

Always looking for ways to expand. The Provinces of Germany...muawahaha. If you can't beat 'em, absorb em.

quote: 3) Improved military alliances. (Where you can station units in allied cities and fortresses etc.)

Perhaps a sub-option? Once you agree to a basic alliance, it gives you the option for right of passage, allowallied units to garrison in your cities, ships to use your harbors/docks.

Of course, with PtW, there will be a limitless number of possibilites so far as alliances, trades, diplomatic agreements, etc.

quote: 4) Fully-fledged alliances. (Share research, resources, and trade income).

The trade income is a good idea. The ability to borrow gold or take a loan, paying it back in X amt. of months/years/centuries

quote: 5) Science and Environment Pacts.

Possibly a treaty where both civs agree to keep their pollution levels below a certain mark, or where both workers cooperate to clean up pollution within their borders?

Of course, any civ that tries to warn me about "global warming"..."MY SUVs ARE BACKED BY NUCLEAR WEAPONS!!"