02-07-2002 08:18									#1
	America or France? Part II Increase the size of your Attachments

As more info trickles in (as is always the case), I felt like starting up one last thread tonight then hit the sack (so to speak). Over the past turnchat, we learned that France is bordered by the Notylopa Jungle on its northern and eastern borders, and the massive Great Rift mountain chain on it's south and east.

Okay, we know that. What about America? Well, chances are (we'll know more later, of course), that they have very nice land to their north. They also have plains to the west of them, towards which they'll no doubt expand.

So where does that put us then? Well, look at the big picture. France has nearly used up all of its good land already, while America has plenty of areas to expand to. Add on to that that America is an expansionist civ, and you have the workings for a very interesting situation. My proposal is to modify Case Pink to make America our first target. France will run out of good land long before our first war, while America can (and will) expand for some time, until we slice them up. I feel that we should knock out America early, take their land for our own expansion, and let France flounder in the jungle. In time, we will be able to build up a new strike force to take their good land to the west of the jungle and their mineral resources in the Great Rift. France will have no where to expand to but the jungle, which will render them weak after their land is used up. They will make a good vassal once we have the time to actually aim for that goal. Right now in ~2500 BC our only goal is survival... not crippling and enslaving another civ. Just to make it. Later on we will have many an opportunity to deal with the French. But right now what will benefit us most is an expansionist civ erased from the map, and the good land they sit on to be added to our empire.

As always, we'll know more later, but based upon what we know now, my opinion has shifted, and I propose that America, and not France be our next target for these reasons I have stated above.

	02-07-2002 08:38									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The time for final decisions is 20 or 25 turns in the future.

You make good points about the grasslands of the Americans. However, we must also consider the iron that the French no doubt have.

It will be good to see what else the scouts can uncover. Maybe we could have coastal warrior loop back up to get a view of the Eastern area of the Americans.

	02-07-2002 09:14									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

As a counterpoint to the iron issue, America's land is more likely to have horses. War Chariots have an attack value of 2 which matches the swordsman's defense value.

	02-07-2002 09:18									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

both sides have their pros... we need to scout a bit more.

America

• Fertile Grasslands
  
• Dyes (we see like 4 or 5, some not in their borders)
  
• Possible Horses
  
• A Nice River
  
• Other Jungle-Based Rivers neaby
  
• A good position, blocks off the east for us
  

	02-07-2002 10:11									#5
	What We Know for Sure 2470bc Inflate your Upload Space

Distances given as Total, D (diagonal) and S (straight). Diagonal is equivalent to about 1.5 straight for corruption (or some such). Total for corruption in brackets.

--- America
Capitol Location: Washington (grassland), on River
Number of Cities: 2
Known Resources: Dye
Likely Resources: Horses
Techs to Gain: Alphabet, The Wheel, Mysticism

Distance between Capitols: 15, D9 S6 (19 or 20)
Closest City fm Capitol (x): New York
Distance fm Capitol to x: 10, D9 S1 (14 or 15)
Closest Cities (y and z): BananaHQ - New York
Distance between y and z: 5

Distance from closest Barracks to Capitol: 11
Number of Jungle Tiles to link y and z with Road: 3 (1 on Dye).


--- France
Capitol Location: Paris ???, ???
Number of Cities: 2
Known Resources: Wine
Likely Resources: Iron, Horses
Techs to Gain: Alphabet, Mysticism

Distance between Capitols: 16, D6 S10 (19)
Closest City fm Capitol (x): Orleans
Distance fm Capitol to x: 13, D2 S11 (14)
Closest Cities (y and z): Red City - Orleans
Distance between y and z: 9

Distance from closest Barracks to Capitol: 12
Number of Jungle Tiles to link y and z: 6


It seems as if the numbers give the nod to the Americans as targets right now. Especially since they lead in tech. France can buy tech from them while we bash on them and we in turn can buy from France.

I'm surprised by the numbers for linking our nearest 2 cities being so in favour of attacking the Americans (as of right now, we shall see). As am I surprised to find that the distances for corruption are almost identical. I believe I was misleading myself in my desire to secure iron at the earliest possible moment.

In any event, we should be able to buy The Wheel shortly. That should reveal that we are sitting on them. That may make the French iron all that much more attractive. We shall see.

	02-07-2002 10:21									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

BTW. Did anybody notice that there is Forest NW of Banana HQ? On a river.

3S, 1SW of Washington.

	02-07-2002 13:12									#7
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According to the current intelligence files, Washington seems to be darn good located for a capital. Could be ours. But I preserve my vote till more of the map is discovered. I still think, we should pick on both of them. The question is only, in what order.

	02-07-2002 16:10									#8
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Last time I voted for an attack on France, but I changed my mind, let's take out America

	02-07-2002 16:25									#9
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* mwaf thinks our president has spoken wisely

However, although America seems like a better choice now, things may still change. So I'd suggest we make a new poll just before we're ready to attack.

	02-07-2002 16:55									#10
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It would seem the wiser course to wait until more of the geograhpy has been discovered before deciding upon which unsuspecting country to play with.

Also considering that ethics have entered the fray, maybe we should look at our relationship with the different nations and how they can possiby evolve.

	02-07-2002 17:27									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I like the sound of attacking America too.

We need to scout out more of their territory though.

However, we need to have an army before we can attack anybody. We currently do not.

Who knows? No decision needs to made until we have an army, in 25+ turns America might be too strong for us to risk attacking, maybe they won't ... maybe France will have Swordsmen ... maybe they won't.
Until such a time as we are ready to attack we must scout out as much land as possible. Then we will have enough info to make an informed choice.

	02-07-2002 17:31									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

In more recent games I've played, there has been quite a mistake made... letting the Americans expand. Soon enough, they wiped me out with a superior military. As for France, I've been able to wipe them out easily regardless of whether or not I pruned them before they could expand.

Therefore, my opinion would be more towards attacking the Americans. We need to deal with them before they grow too big. And since its on the Emperor difficulty, that will definitely happen with the bonuses the AI receives, as well as their tendency to build up population (which in turn increases settler production whenever there's still unoccupied territory on the map).

Not to mention that past the jungle are some good lands that may very well contain horses. War chariots may well be the Apolytonians' ride to glory.

Once America has been at the very least pruned, and our forces are repaired and rebuilt, we can always then turn around and take France out next.

	02-07-2002 19:48									#13
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

This is exactly what I have said. It would benefit us far more to attack and defeat America, an expansionist, aggressive civilization with claims to good lands. I have been saying it for days, and now the President confirms my statements. And so, America, I believe, must now be our number one target. The Americans have the Wheel, this is so, but if we strike quickly and if we strike hard enough, they won't have the time to defend themselves. To Washington, sirs, the scene shifts. It is a perfect position for a city, and especially for a capitol. If we can take that city, we shall render the Americans almost useless in their counter-attacks, and they shall not be a great civilization again. It must be done. If we do not attack them now in this Case Pink, we most assuredly shall have to fight them at some later date, and it shall be all the worse for us.

	02-07-2002 19:53									#14
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America now seems to be the best choice. That could change, but everything is subject to change, so we should go on what we have.

	02-07-2002 20:24									#15
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Yeah, I'm starting to rethink Case Pink, too. IF (big if) the Yanks are sitting on good land, with more to their north, then it would be better to take out the Expansionist rival first. In particular, it would be nice to get the horses, to bring our UU into play. Theoretically, we could time a golden age to coincide with our second war (against France?).
Plus, with the Iroquois roaming the continent, we're gonna need horsies. (Mounted Warriors. )
So we'll see what our warrior scouts uncover. Let's definitely poke around the outskirts of the Yankee cities.

	02-07-2002 20:34									#16
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If the Greeks are north of the French, there might be good land there. Maybe we should take France as a stepping-stone.

	02-07-2002 20:34									#17
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Too true, well-spoken, Mr. Baron, and very true. America should be our target. Our President now believes it to be so that this dictator Lincoln sits atop a mass of good land, and with his expansionist policies, I believe that he will be able to accumulate good land at a very quick rate of speed if we do not act now. America must be taken down, that is the only way we can survive.

After studying the situation, I have come to the conclusion that France is technologically on par with our own civilization, as far as their own scientests are concerned. I believe that the technological chaps out there are target number one, the Americans. I believe that the French have received what they have that we do not through trading with the Yankees, and they are not simply French advances in technology. In that case, we are actually doing much better technologically than we at first theorized. Amazing stuff, techs.

	02-07-2002 20:36									#18
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What are the Greeks like, technologically?

	02-07-2002 20:47									#19
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Well, sir, what I have heard is that they are also on par with our own people technology-wise. The sole advance that the Greeks have made that we have not is The Alphabet, but it seems as if they are behind us in some technologies as well. And so, if they are not below us technology-wise, they are certainly on our level, but no higher.

	02-07-2002 21:06									#20
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Again, maybe we should attack France and then subsequently Greece. We might gain more usable land, and that would (at least partly) counter the extra growth time for America.

	02-07-2002 22:36									#21
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But, if the Greeks don't have their 3 defense Hoplites yet, they probably will by the time we can attack them; since they're Scientific, they already have Bronze Working, right?

I say go for America and France first.

	02-07-2002 22:49									#22
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I forgot about the hoplites . I usually don't play with the Greeks, so I didn't remember that.

	02-07-2002 22:56									#23
	America Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I think we should attack the Americans first, to stop their expansion and to get ourselves those dyes. Then we could consolidate and move on the French, leaving the Greeks with their Hoplites to trade with and peacefully advance with. Then when we get weaponry capable of beating the Hoplites (preferably Knights) and we rush them suddenly. However this would probably require a lot of time and a lot of knights by the time we have sufficient tech. We could always build up a lot of horsemen and upgrade them for the assualt. But this is just my opinion in the long term, but definatly America first.

:0

	03-07-2002 00:25									#24
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hi ,

both , for the land and for the resources , ...

have a nice day

	03-07-2002 01:13									#25
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Concerning the Greeks:

I reccommend that we DO NOT F*CK WITH THEM YET. the last thing apolytonia needs rigth now is archers going up against 3 defense... maybe after we get iron working we'll decide.

they are definately not our first targets, and we might as well try to get a decent (fair) trading relationship with them for now.

	03-07-2002 03:19									#26
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Which raises an important dimension here: which AI civ do we want to spare, to cultivate peaceful/trading/alliance relations with?
Like our fearless military commander, I do not like the idea of slamming our archers up against hoppilites!

	03-07-2002 03:30									#27
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Although we need more info, I think America should be our first target :
- France is stuck between mountains and Jungle, and we're not aware of such limitations for the Americans
- France is much less agressive than America, it's less likely to attack while our troops are away.
- France is polite with us, while America is annoyed.

	03-07-2002 15:19									#28
	Support Apolyton

I think America is the best target here for a number of reasons:

1. We know they are an expansionist civ, more so than the French.

2. In the experience of most people, America tends to become more powerful than France and se we would be doing ourselves a long term favour.

3. From what we can see of the map so far it certainly appears that we would have more material gain by conquering the American territory.

4. France may be a useful ally to have a s a weak neighbour.

	03-07-2002 20:13									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

BTW, if we do decide to battle the Yanks first, we need to settle a city on the other patch of dyes (NorthEAST of Banana HQ) as soon as possible (to lock up a monopoly, if possible, of what looks to be our first luxury resource).

	03-07-2002 20:20									#30
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Oh, absolutely. And once victory is, God willing, complete, we must strike to connect our cities through new cities and new roads, to truly create a conjoined and fully unified empire.