03-07-2002 04:12									#1
	Ultimate Power Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

For a while now, I have been seeking what I've termed the "Game of Ultimate Power." I have been seeking it on Monarch level (and will continue to seek it elsewhere), Standard Maps, Continents, 8 civs. I began this thread to discuss the game which I decided finally fit my definition of "Ultimate Power."

First, allow me to explain what I mean by UP:

- A large, productive empire
- Huge leads in tech, money, military force
- Just about all the Wonders of the World, with the ones I deem "key" built or rushed myself (not captured)
- The capability to do whatever I wish wherever I wish

I wish to have these things achieved by the end of the middle ages.

Why do I seek this? It's a throwback to CivII, where I could pretty much do this 9 times out of 10 on Diety. CivIII, however, proved much more difficult. I was always a "builder" type of player who rarely fought until late in the game in CivII. When I did fight, most of my conquests were actually acquisitions (spies).

I discovered that CivIII, once you get up to Monarch, does not really allow one to dominate the game via "builder" methods. If you try, you will most likely get beaten to various wonders or get attacked because your military is neglected. After some frustration caused by trying to play the game as if it was CivII, I gave in to the Dark Side. I went warmonger, playing many games as Japan, and now several as China (sparked by Vel's Industrious thread and the general Industrious vs. Religious debate). I still prefer Religious, but it just so happens that the Game of Ultimate Power was Chinese.

Oh, what a difference. I cannot overstate the awesome power of early war - in particular, early war that generates Great Leaders. This is required for Ultimate Power above Regent level (probably above warlord, for that matter).

I decided to post about this particular game in this particular forum (strategy as opposed to stories or general) because I want to discuss the way this game unfolded from a strategic standpoint, and the regulars here can be counted on to do that.

I freely admit that my search for UP involved many searches for lovely starting spots, as I had no expectation of UP without one.

Without further ado, the starting spot:

Attachment: in the beginning.jpg
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	03-07-2002 04:17									#2
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Yes, it is one of the faults of Civ 111, it is geared towards a warmongering stlye. Of course it is important to have a military, but its taken to far in Civ 111. You should be able to have significant more success as a builder.

	03-07-2002 04:27									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ok, so that's one helluva starting spot. I moved 1 tile before settling, not wanting to waste a game tile. The thing that made this game great, as opposed to good, was the settler. No strategy there, clearly.

I used the Chinese the way they were built to be used: archer attack on my neighbor, dear Lizzy of England. I took London in 1700BC and pressed the war (but not the attack) until I generated a great leader, built an archer army and won 1 battle with it. Then to peace, while I built the HE and researched toward Monarchy. England's tech helped with that 2nd goal.

The switch to Monarchy was key, as I never did switch again. Normally, when playing a non-religious civ, I will make the jump from despotism straight to republic. This time, I figured I'd stick with Monarchy because I had every intention of fighting near-constantly.

I built a horseman/swordsman force, as per my normal strategy, without the chariot upgrade gambit. Unfortunately, that was removed when I took HBR from England for peace. Perhaps a mistake. I unleashed my hordes on India, hoping for lots 'o leaders. And leaders I got.

Here is the mini map from 420AD, with some added info. By this time, I had:

- Colossus (built) 350 BC
- Hanging Gardens (built) 10AD
- forbidden palace (rushed) 330AD
- moved palace (rushed) 390AD

Attachment: raging hordes.jpg
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	03-07-2002 04:34									#4
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The English are obviously crippled, and India is down to 3 cities. The Japanese were about to sneak attack me, and the French were sitting offshore looking worried.

Military screen from 420AD:

Attachment: army, 420 ad.jpg
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	03-07-2002 04:53									#5
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Sure enough, when politely asked to leave my territory, my former allies the Japanese declared war on me. Jerks. Ok, then.

I did what damage I could with my horsemen, but eventually started running into pikes. Therefore, Riders were needed. So Riders I used. They went down hard, and my golden age allowed me to properly build up my empire.

Wonders as they came:

Sistine (rushed) 630 AD
Sun Tzu (built) 750 AD
Leos (rushed) 780 AD
Copernicus (built) - 1020 AD
Smith (rushed) - 1140 AD

Time to clean up:

Attachment: time to clean up.jpg
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	03-07-2002 05:00									#6
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Now I'm rolling. I load my Riders/elite horsies onto ships, preparing to wipe the floor with Joan.

Three turns prior to invading, I investigate Paris, and what do I see? Producing: Musketeer. ACK!

I took Paris, but triggered a French GA, and had to sit tight in Paris for a good long while, fighting off musketeer attacks, while I researched to Military Tradition.

A screenshot from 1275, with the breakout from Paris proceeding:

Attachment: offshore cleanup.jpg
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	03-07-2002 05:10									#7
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I had captured the Great Lighthouse from India, and had ventured far enough with a caravel to see a border over the western ocean, but chose not to make contact. I had no desire to speed the overseas AI's tech research.

I did get a cryptic message while doing my cleanup:

The Aztecs have been destroyed.

Ah, excellent, now there will be three.

So I finished off the French, and made contact. I discovered that the Americans had wiped out the Aztecs, but had done very little to consolidate their gains (typical) and the Iroquois were pretty much a joke.

So I played the Imperialist. I plunked down two cities in formerly Aztec territory in order to gain access to two luxuries (furs, silks). The Americans, of course, were displeased with my theft of their luxuries, and attacked with waves of Knights. I'm really sorry I didn't save the game upon my initial founding of these two outposts, as it would have made a much better screenshot than this one:

Attachment: imperialism.jpg
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	03-07-2002 05:23									#8
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The Iroquois (yellow) began filling in empty space, since I didn't want to win yet via domination, and left much of the continent empty as I butchered the Americans.

Then they did something silly. They built a city that took away 1 of New Beijing's silks. So I used my RoP agreement to ravage the Iroquois "empire."

Meanwhile, on the home front:

Newton (rushed) 1295 AD
Magellan (built) 1330 AD
Universal Suffrage (built) 1455 AD
ToE (rushed) 1455 AD
Hoover (rushed) 1475 AD
Pentagon (rushed) 1500 AD
Ironworks (rushed) 1525AD - in America

I ended up with 12 Great Leaders (army, FP, palace move, sistine, leo, bach, smith, newton, toe, hoover, pentagon, marketplace)

Finally, I left Hiawatha a little somethin':

Attachment: the reservation.jpg
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	03-07-2002 05:26									#9
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Backing up a bit...

My two outpost cities on the American continent succeeded not only in gaining two luxuries for me, but also in provoking Abe to attack me on my terms. Both cities had barracks and walls, and were being reinforced fairly steadily by my galleon fleet. Each had multiple musketmen defenders (3-4 of them), with Cavalry as well. Cannon were on their way as the attack began, and their absense was felt, as I lost several musketmen.

Abe threw an awful lot of knights at me, I estimate 20-25 of them. I was able to slaughter them with minimal losses, either on defense or counterattacking with Cavalry. I also used the Cavalry to destroy the closest American(Aztec) cities nearest my two cities so as to open up some space.

This left his empire terribly exposed to my eventual all-out assault with Cavalry and Riflemen, resulting very quickly in the total destruction of America.

The Iroquois' fate was sealed, with or without the RoP violation. It merely spead things up a bit.

At the end, I was killing barbarians with Mech Infantry while researching Space Flight. Silly me, however, I won via domination unintentionally... the Ironworks city expanded its borders. I just HAD to built that wonder, in a city that never produced more than 5 uncorrupted shields. But it wouldn't been in my character to pass up a wonder, great or small.

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 03-07-2002 at 06:22

	03-07-2002 06:25									#10
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So why was this game better than my other attempts?

Well, I had achieved similar technological, economic and military might vis-a-vis the AI before. There were two key differences in this one:

1) The fact that I stayed in Monarchy the whole way, and that it never slowed me down tech-wise. The most I ever waited for a tech after my Medieval Golden Age was over was 5 turns.

2) 12 Great Leaders. TWELVE.

Initially, I didn't want to switch governments because of the anarchy hit I'd take. But after a little while I realized my empire was efficient enough to never need republic or democracy. After all, I was getting the military police anti-unhappiness bonus, no war weariness, and a free armed forces in exchange for the loss of commerce. By the end of the game, the allowed free units number was well over 300, and I had 150 or so. As I was getting tech in 4 turns most of the time, with the occasional 5 turn, it made little sense to waste 5 turns in anarchy in order to switch governments.

As I said before, I still prefer Religious to Industrious (and thus the Japanese to the Chinese), but the fact is that the early archer attack, which the Chinese do a heckuva lot better, is extremely effective. It by no means prevents a later horseman rush, and can result in a very early Great Leader. A Great Leader in 1500bc can be invested in the Heroic Epic and one can then expect to reap the rewards when it counts (FP, medieval wonders).

When utilizing a horseman rush as the first attack (usually launched between 500 and 250 bc), I have other priorities for leaders. At that point, the #1 thing is a forbidden palace. Shortly thereafter, the Medieval wonders show up, and demand attention. Therefore, I rarely feel that investing a GL in an army for the HE in the hopes of more leaders later is worth it. By the time the HE's effect manifests itself, GLs are not as powerful as they were earlier in the game. This is, of course, a matter of opinion.

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 03-07-2002 at 06:43

	03-07-2002 06:49									#11
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For those interested, here is my last save, from 1685AD. I eventually won about a century later (1778?). Final score 5750. Not my highest, but close. Score, of course, has only a (very) indirect relation to Ultimate Power. It only takes into account territory and population (with happiness bonus, of course). It ignores many of the things that I consider crucial: tech lead, wealth, projection of power, control of resources/luxuries, etc.

-Arrian

Attachment: interestingendgame.sav
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	03-07-2002 07:03									#12
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Bah, screwed up post. See the next one.

	03-07-2002 07:07									#13
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Here is a minimap with circles around the Palace and Forbidden Palace locations. The Palace is clearly not centered, which was deliberate. It's in Shanghai (Beijing directly to the north) because the city to its NE (with a small arrow draw toward it) has the Colossus. This remained useful for the majority of the game, so I chose to leave the Palace in Shanghai until I had flight, after which I moved it to the city with a square around it.

Despite the non-central location of the Palace, the overall placement of the Palace/FP allowed an awful lot of productive cities. This was the main factor in my ability to climb the tech tree quickly despite being in a commerce-impaired government.

Attachment: palace&fp.jpg
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	03-07-2002 07:15									#14
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Here is a shot of my civ's economic data, circa 1685. Considering the size of my empire, and the system of government, I was more than happy with approximately 25% corruption:

Attachment: efficiency.jpg
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	03-07-2002 11:36									#15
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Holy ****. That is probably the most dominating game I have ever seen! And you got 12 great leaders? That is unbelievable.

I never liked the archer because elite archers will die instead of retreat. I think elite horsemen would make better leader generators. I love the rider, but I prefer religious civs. Great game, I'm gonna start monarch when I finish my current game.

	03-07-2002 18:05									#16
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King,

Yeah, archers are more subject to bad RNG rolls, but I was killing English regular archers. 2 v. 1.1, 5hp to 3hp. I was pretty safe. I almost lost the archer ARMY though, to a regular spearman. The UBERspearman dropped my 12hp army to 1hp before finally expiring. That scared the hell outta me.

I too prefer Japan, and have had really dominating games with them. Unfortunately, I'm terrible about saving games periodically - I typically work off of 1 save that I save over - so none of those games are well documented. 1 or 2 of them approach this level of dominance, but none can match 12 leaders.

-Arrian

	03-07-2002 19:48									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ok, some topics for discussion:

1) the first leader... should I have instead used him on the Pyramids, which the Americans ended up building? That was one of the blemishes on this game... I lacked the Pyramids until I captured Washington. It would have speeded up my already speedy expansion and development, but would have cost me some of my later leaders. As it turns out, of course, it poured leaders, so I could've spared a few.

2) should I have switched to a republic at some point?

I have the saves from 3450BC, 420AD, 800AD, 940AD, 1275AD, 1465AD, and 1685AD. I've posted the 1685 save. It might be interesting to take the 1275 save, finish France, make contact, but try to maintain peaceful relations with America and the Iroquois... aiming for a late industrial or modern age showdown (this would require selling/gifting techs, as they are well behind).

If there is interest, I can post any of those saves when I get home tonight.

-Arrian

	03-07-2002 22:26									#18
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First, great game.

Second, aren't you a little vulnerable leaving Hiawatha with saltpeter?

	03-07-2002 22:42									#19
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Great game, Arrian.

And Theseus: At the current situation (zero food surplus) Hia has no hope to build a worker to connect the resource. So he has nothing.

	03-07-2002 22:53									#20
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Sir Ralph,

Theseus is joking, I'm sure. Though it didn't show up on the screenshot, I'm pretty sure that island also had oil. Uh-oh! I'm shakin!

I think he pop-rushed the rifleman or something, because the city is using an entertainer. He could at least generate one more shield by putting that citizen to work, but apparently the town would riot. I helped, of course, by destroying all of the city and terrain improvements through artillery bombardment before withdrawing my forces.

I love that he's building a galleon when he's totally surrounded by privateers. Clearly, it doesn't matter what he builds, but I find the galleon funny.

-Arrian

	03-07-2002 23:29									#21
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I think your use of the first GL was right on target. You knew by then that you would be fighting many many battles until you had secured the continent, and thus had a decent shot of getting a good, quick payback.

I don't think the Pyramids would have done much for you, as I'm sure you reached 6 pop in your cities very quickly anyway.

I DO think the GLs which allowed positioning of the FP and the Palace strengthened your production quite a bit.

Well played.

	03-07-2002 23:32									#22
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Yep, just joking.

About Hiawatha, though: What's that city on that it's generating 5 gpt?

	03-07-2002 23:34									#23
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Theseus,

Perhaps true, although many of my cities were on rivers, and so didn't stop at size 6 (yet another reason my economy was strong). My forbidden palace area was also loaded with rivers.

The FP really couldn't have been in a better spot. My only gripe is that it came kinda late (330AD). I'm still looking for a game where, by some stroke of luck and/or genius, I'm able to get a well-placed FP VERY early (like 1000bc). Just imagine how big a boost that would be.

-Arrian

	03-07-2002 23:35									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Yep, just joking. About Hiawatha, though: What's that city on that it's generating 5 gpt?

You know, I was just thinking the same thing.

It might be the oil I was talking about. I can check tonight. I don't think it's a golden age (he tried to kill things with his MW's, but failed, IIRC).

-Arrian

EDIT: ok, I checked the saved game, and oddly enough the city is built on a normal desert tile. There is no oil (perhaps one shifted there between the save and the time I won). So I don't know what's causing the high trade.

	04-07-2002 01:55									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian EDIT: ok, I checked the saved game, and oddly enough the city is built on a normal desert tile. There is no oil (perhaps one shifted there between the save and the time I won). So I don't know what's causing the high trade.

Alexman just posted this response in another thread:

quote: Originally posted by Alexman The center tile: * Produces exactly two food for all terrain. * Uses terrain shield production, but has a one-shield-minimum. * Uses terrain commerce production. Includes road commerce bonus, if appicable to the terrain. Capital produces four commerce minimum(new to 1.21f, and subject to government penalty). * If size 7+, produces one extra shield and one extra commerce. * If size 13+, produces yet another shield and another commerce. On top of that, but only for this size, commercial civs produce an extra commerce, and Industrious produce an extra shield. Despotism/Anarchy tile penalty applies as for any other tile.

Emphasis added.

Very nice game

	05-07-2002 04:51									#26
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Thanks for the info Catt.

Here is another game that comes close to "ultimate power." The key differences are that this time, I'm the Japanese and thus am running a democracy, and that the overseas AI's are much stronger. They have managed to stay peaceful, which means there are no convenient openings for me to establish a foothold.

I discovered this game today. For some reason, I never played it out. I think I was annoyed with the Palace/FP placement - my empire is nowhere near as efficient as I'd like. Talk about economic power, though...

-Arrian

Attachment: newjapan.sav
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	05-07-2002 10:25									#27
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Re: Hiawatha's commerce

Thanks Catt, that covers 4 gpt... the last is probably some resource.

Re: GA

Or it might be from a GA... if not, congrats Arrian for TOTALLY shutting Hiawatha down. I've done that a couple of times to Rome and Persia... how satisfying!

Re: Early FP

I swear to god I dream about Civ (I know, many do), and my dream come true will be Pyramids and HE prior to 1000BC... I'm gonna propose that as one of the Best challenges. [Note, not FP... way too early, at least that's what I think]

Again, well done game.

	08-07-2002 20:02									#28
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Theseus,

I've had the Pyramids that early, but not the Pyramids AND the HE. That would be amazing... the stuff of dreams to be sure. Imagine, however, being able to rush a "perfect" forbidden immediately once the option is there. Let's say 1000BC. The power of that!

Someday...

-Arrian

	08-07-2002 22:13									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Re: Hiawatha's commerce Thanks Catt, that covers 4 gpt... the last is probably some resource.

The road bonus covers the last gold piece - each city gets the beenfits of a road in the city tile.

	08-07-2002 22:19									#30
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Actually, the road bonus is included in the 4 commerce minimum. I think the extra commerce must come from the Republic/Democracy bonus.