03-07-2002 04:31									#1
	Debate : Rules for turnchat Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Now that we have a bit of experience with turnchats, I think it's time for us to elaborate some simple rules to deal with predictable problems. Some things I'll write are already done, but codifying it will just make sure.

I think we need to codify some things :
- The president and VP should be ops by default. They can op whoever they want. ("op" is explained below)
- The president writes what he does in red, or charges the VP to do it. People playing along must wait for the president to write in red before making the move.
- Only the president or the VP (if in charge of telling the moves) can write in red. Regular citizens should only write in black.

- it's possible to kick (explained below) anyone after a simple majority vote. If someone has been deemed "kickable", he can be kicked at will without asking to the others thereafter. Only ops can propose a kick.
- it's possible to ban (explained below) anyone after a 2/3 vote. It's impossible to ban someone, so that he cannot attend to the next turnchat.
- channels can't get moderated (explained below)
- channels can't get on invite only (exp. b.)

I'd also like to raise a point, which I think is more debatable than the others : I don't think we should have a separate chatroom for minister discussion. Having it make it difficult to keep track on everything (regular chat, minister chat, game, possible private chats).
This private minister chatroom will eventually lead to less interaction between the government and normal citizens, which is bad for democracy.
I suggest ministers tell their orders in the regular chat, but write in blue. This way, their orders won't be confused with people's demands.

Now, a bit of vocabulary :
Op : A person who has the power to set the rules of the chatroom. An op can do almost anything in the chatroom.
kick : Expelling someone from the chatroom. This person can come back whenever he wants.
ban : Expelling someone from the chatroom without allowing him to come back. Bans can last a given time, or can last for eternity
moderate : people can't speak (ie, nobody can read what they write), uless they are specifically allowed by the ops. Ops can speak.

	03-07-2002 05:08									#2
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That for the most part sounds good. But the part about ministers giving their orders in blue and not having a seperate chat isn't what I like. Normally, during the turnchat I'm busy with about 10 things at once, and with the chatroom moving fairly swiftly, it's easy for me to miss orders while I'm doing other things. If orders are given in another specific room, then it cuts down on the amount of 'other stuff' that I have to wade through to find orders. I'm probably the only person that has to deal with that, since I'm the only one who has to see the orders, execute them, then announce them.

	03-07-2002 06:04									#3
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I can testify for Trip that it is indeed very hard to catch all orders when you are busy doing a bunch of other things, and it is a godsend to have a chat room dedicated to issuing orders.

I feel it would not be fair to not allow everyone to talk as they wish, and they would most likely start up another chat room anyway. Also, all citizens can go into the room where orders are issued, and they just shouldn't talk there (that forum should be moderated).

Just my 2 cents.

	03-07-2002 07:32									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Timeline Also, all citizens can go into the room where orders are issued, and they just shouldn't talk there (that forum should be moderated).

Good call. If Trip needs a seperate room so that he can keep track of orders (and from the chaos that the main chat becomes, I imagine he will ) it should still be open to everyone, just moderated. It would defeat the purpose of a democracy game if the game orders were laid out in a room hidden from the general citizens.

	03-07-2002 07:47									#5
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thats exactly what we did... no one joined the room though

	03-07-2002 08:34									#6
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YES! Nice idea Timeline - kinda like allowing the public into Government sessions. We get to make sure the Ministers are listening to us, whilst simultaneously helping Trip, Timeline, Uber, Ninot and everyone else cope with so much to do by not swamping the important stuff.

Uber - I would have been in that room (if just to rub cyber-shoulders with such distinguished company ), and I will be when I can make the chats.

	03-07-2002 13:44									#7
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we could also have the room moderated with auto-voice per default and then just devoice all normal citizens when things get disturbing.

btw:
what does playing along mean?
if it is what i think it makes no sense, as the results will be different on each "play along" version of the game.

	03-07-2002 19:24									#8
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The game seems to be set up such that an identical move on any computer results in the same reactions from the AI. This seems to be true at least for the short term - please correct me if I'm wrong, but there have been several playing along at turnchats (including me), and IIRC there have not been any different results yet.

	03-07-2002 19:35									#9
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These sound like good ideas.

	03-07-2002 20:17									#10
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mrwhere:
as soon as the recalculation of the dices takes place, there will be differences. if per accident this will fall into a chat-time, the results will be unpredictable. if we did not have a fights till now, then you will rarely notice it. if we have a fight, the results are propably totally different on different systems.

* who knows how many dices the games saves with its sav?
* who knows whether the game was set up this way?

	03-07-2002 20:28									#11
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Then, disorganizer, we need to seriously reconsider playing along as soon as any combat is to happen. If there is no mention before in these threads, one of us (the people) needs to bring it to the attention of the Ministers.

	03-07-2002 20:28									#12
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The random numbers are calculated from in-game events, therefore if you do the same thing, it will give you the same number.

	03-07-2002 23:44									#13
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well, if the numbers are random, they cant be the same. of at least the propability of being the same is very low.
you can turn on "preserve random seed" in 1.21f, which will save the "list of the next random numbers" with the save (but i dont know for how many turns in advance). but if you do not turn this on, then the numbers are recalculated with hitting return at the end of the turn, which will make the numbers different for each "alongplayer".

	04-07-2002 01:43									#14
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I think preserve random seed is on.

	04-07-2002 03:05									#15
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but if yes, for how many turns does it pre-calculate? firaxis only sais that it is pre-calculating, but i did not find for how many "events" it holds the seeds.

	04-07-2002 03:17									#16
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX thats exactly what we did... no one joined the room though

That´s reeeeally strange considering the "advertisment" for that room was: All the ministers join the ministerschatroom (or whatever the name was)... if I knew I as a simple citizen could join that chatroom of the nobles i would... so shame on u guys ...

Murder the Goverment! Murder the goverment! Murder the Goverment... And theeeeen... do it again yeah! //Murder The Goverment - NOFX

	04-07-2002 05:17									#17
	Does it really matter? Increase the size of your Attachments

The way I see it...

We all get a the same save game. Lets face it there is only one official game, the one that the Prez is playing. We can easily play along and allow randomness to introduce some error, but the way things are going, I do not know if any one session will go so many turns that it would matter much. Maybe a little. But it does not matter. There is only one thing going on, the game the prez is playing. consider the rest battlefield rumors.

anyway...
If the turnchat goes on too long. The prez can save the game and post it live for people to catch up with reality.

	04-07-2002 17:29									#18
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you post-proposal would be good. especially when war arrises, as then the results of the random seed will fully show their potential of confusion ("use the 2nd warrior" "which one?" "of this one! it died 3 turns before"...).

to the chat-organization:
what about having
a) a citizen chatroom with full talking capability, where citizens can talk about that they want. the president also posts the descriptions for the turn there. citizen spot-polls are also held in there.
b) a miniter-chatroom, where only ministers are voiced, but where every citizen can listen, but not talk? if a citizen requests being voiced for important information, the president can decide to let him have voice in there (so the pres and vice have to be ops).

	04-07-2002 19:07									#19
	Put an end to popups!

About playing along :
the more I think of it, the more I think the Prez should post a save twice per turn. Once at the very beginning of the turn, so that ministers can think their decisions, once at the very end of the turn, so that ministers can make needed decisions in the interturn time (this involves mostly Foreign advisor, but the foreign advisor has to consult pretty everyone)

When things get more complex, it will be impossible for ministers to do their duties and play along at the same time. I think this solution is the most fit.

	04-07-2002 21:30									#20
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There is no need to do that now....

We have had very problems with play along so far, maybe once we start ecnountering them more frequently we can start updating saves every turn.

For now, it's unnecessary and will just slow us down imho.

	04-07-2002 22:30									#21
	bans or kicks? Put an end to popups!

I am somewhat skeptical about bans and kicks:

Personally, I did not find the two chatrooms (actualy three, but what the hey) to bee too distracting. I am fine with one chatbox only for minister posting and one for the general public. The general public can look in on the ministers but can't post there.

On bans and kicks, Obviously, people who break certain basic rules (write in colors reserved for some [hey, we have sumptuary laws!], post in min. chatroom when they are not ministers and such shold be banned, though only for the remainder of chat) but I am unclear about the circumsances under which someone would be kicked out- what cosntitutes as spamming and does only the prez and VP ge to choose who is spamming?

	05-07-2002 02:02									#22
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i would oppose kicking or banning someone just for colors or posting in the wrong chatroom. as long as our administration does not care to moderate the ministery chatroom, this messure is nonsense. if they want citizens to silence, they should have the room moderated. if they dont know how, they should employ a full-time operator ;-) or chanserv.
colors should not be reserved for anyone or for a special purpose, as i, for example, just turn them off anyways (this no-sense-stuff is lame as hell) and so dont care bout which color i send.

	06-07-2002 18:11									#23
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quote: Originally posted by disorganizer but if yes, for how many turns does it pre-calculate? firaxis only sais that it is pre-calculating, but i did not find for how many "events" it holds the seeds.

hi ,

some argue that it depends , do you shut your comp off , restart , etc , actually there is no real answer for the moment , .....

maybe we should ask in a chat with Firaxis , ...

have a nice day

	06-07-2002 18:17									#24
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I have to disagree with one point: 'moderated' might sometimes be needed. There might come a time when the chatroom is absolutely horded with individuals-- it just shouldn't be worded as to make it impossible to be done.


Another question is why DAL net? Why not one of the many games irc servers? Some belong to networks and have US and Europe hub. They are typically much easier to join then Dal, Ef, and Under net.

	06-07-2002 19:46									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Epistax I have to disagree with one point: 'moderated' might sometimes be needed. There might come a time when the chatroom is absolutely horded with individuals-- it just shouldn't be worded as to make it impossible to be done. Another question is why DAL net? Why not one of the many games irc servers? Some belong to networks and have US and Europe hub. They are typically much easier to join then Dal, Ef, and Under net.

hi ,

it would be more intresting if the chat on this site would work as intended , .... this way more people shall also see and hear about the game , and join .

we should ask MarkG about the status of the chatroom here .

have a nice day