03-07-2002 09:01									#1
	Civ3 huge maps...size of real-life United States? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

In one of my games on Marla Singer's map, I was playing as the Persians and had conquered/colonized all of Asia, Africa, and Europe (except for England/Ireland). I had well over a dozen cities with populations over 20+, and yet my whole nation still had only a few hundred million people. I wondered how I could control so much territory, have so many big cities, and still not even begin to approach the population of the "real" Earth. Somewhere along the line I began to wonder about how the game computed your land area for the demographics screen.

Next time I started a game, I immediately checked the demographics screen. I had a land area of 900 sqr miles. Since I controlled 9 squares, that would be 100 sqr miles each, making the square's dimensions 10 x 10 miles.

Therefore, a 300x300 map has a circumference of only 3,000 miles. The US is approximately 3,000 miles across.

Small world, huh?

Does anyone know if it's possible to change the demographic dimensions of a square in the Editor?

Likewise, is it possible to change the relationship between city size and population size?

	03-07-2002 10:07									#2
	Support Apolyton

I agree, cities in civ 3 are really the size of countries in the real world.

	03-07-2002 12:36									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I think they have simply chosen some numbers for simplicity. You could argue that 10,000 is very large for a small city in 4000 BC. IIRC Athen had between 30000-60000 inhabitants in ancient times. Thats a size 2 or 3 city in Civ! I think Rome got somewhat higher in population, but I am quite sure it wasn't a size 12 city (780.000). Don't hang me on that one, though.

	03-07-2002 12:54									#4
	Got spare money?

Rome was the only city in the ancient times which had a population of well over a milion inhabitants at the hight of its power. This is an amazingly high number knowing that Paris and Ghent (the two largest cities during the middle ages north of the alps) had only about 90000 inhabitants.

	03-07-2002 13:00									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

That is why they called it the middle ages.

In other parts of the world, in China for example, there were already population centers rivalling the size of the modern mid-sized cities 1 to 2 million.

	03-07-2002 13:03									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Wow, that is quite population!
Thank you for the correction, dannubis.
Good thing I said "Don't hang me"
Do you also happen to know more about the size of the greek cities?

	03-07-2002 15:23									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

i'd be happier with the end game being more realistic, as thats when im vaguely interested in my population compared to other games ive won to see how big my empire is

whats the circumference of the earth?

	03-07-2002 16:41									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Flight whats the circumference of the earth?

Aprox. 40.000 km

	03-07-2002 18:08									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Firebird Aprox. 40.000 km

Or 24,000 to 25,000 miles. At the equator of course.

	03-07-2002 20:29									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I've wondered the same thing about population from time to time. I don't think I've even reached anywhere near 1/4 of a Billion people by 2050AD on the huge maps.

Well, you either sacrifice realism in ancient times or you do so in the modern era.

Anyone know if the expansion PTW will address this?

	03-07-2002 20:53									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I doubt it - nothing's even been hinted at about it

	03-07-2002 20:55									#12
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I managed to get a population of over one billion on a huge map, but in order to do so I had to change the food requirement and increase the food bonus of resources with the editor. (I got a couple of cities up to 84 this way.) I have yet to find a way to alter the map square’s dimensions.

	03-07-2002 20:56									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ya know, now that I think about it, the population densities/city sizes and land area aren't the problems. If you think about it, having a few hundred million people covering an area the size of the US is pretty much spot-on, considering the US's population of ~280 million. This is ignoring the fact that the Chinese have crammed ~1.3 billion into the same area, though.

So now that we know the numbers are relatively realistic given the area the current game covers, we can conclude that the problem is that the area is simply too small to represent a world.

Knowing that 300 squares circumference ~= 3,000 miles, to make a map 24,000 miles around the map would have to be:

2,400 squares wide

I wonder what kind of processor power we would need for that....

	03-07-2002 21:14									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It seems that the Civ3 map and population represent the real world with a reduction from 10 to 1.

	05-07-2002 00:06									#15
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Noble713 2,400 squares wide I wonder what kind of processor power we would need for that....

Perhaps in five/six years time, when Civ 4 comes out (I hope it does ) the processor power is there. If only they stop putting all that pop in (you now 3D animation and the lot ) so that we can get maps of the right size... and with around 117 civilizations.

It might be a bit hard to keep track of all those tiles with 100,000 units and 10,000 cities. Perhaps its not so bad as it is after all .

	05-07-2002 03:56									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Noble713 2,400 squares wide I wonder what kind of processor power we would need for that....

Sounds about right. An alternative to making a 2,400 square long map would be to make several, linkable, more reginal maps. The only problem is how to link these maps together. Seems to me like something that might be implimented in Civ4, or possibly a VERY, VERY good mod, a mod which would require professional programmers at least a year to create.

	05-07-2002 17:15									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

History books tell that in the war between Korea and China, an army of about 1.2 MILLION soldiers attacked Korea who defended with about 200.000.
That is quite alot for being 3000 years ago.

Of course, this is what history tells.
Minding that China doesn't even know there exact population today, clearly states that those figures is to be taken with a grain of salt...

	05-07-2002 17:33									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Noble713 2,400 squares wide I wonder what kind of processor power we would need for that....

What about turn times ,
this game would take longer then reality

then again, by this time reality might be a game in wich we simulate reality??? This doesn't make any sence, does it??

	06-07-2002 05:00									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I agree

	06-07-2002 05:17									#20
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

oh well, at least these threads were spammed in the correct order. BlackStone did them all in reverse order, which really screwed up the order of things for a few hours.

	07-07-2002 02:40									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

hi ,

since there are going to be more civ's , why not a bigger map , ....

383X383 would be perfect , .....

have a nice day

	08-07-2002 13:13									#22
	Got spare money?

acustom size map should be avaialbe from main setup section without having to use editor

	09-07-2002 01:35									#23
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Noble713 Ya know, now that I think about it, the population densities/city sizes and land area aren't the problems. If you think about it, having a few hundred million people covering an area the size of the US is pretty much spot-on, considering the US's population of ~280 million. This is ignoring the fact that the Chinese have crammed ~1.3 billion into the same area, though. So now that we know the numbers are relatively realistic given the area the current game covers, we can conclude that the problem is that the area is simply too small to represent a world. Knowing that 300 squares circumference ~= 3,000 miles, to make a map 24,000 miles around the map would have to be: 2,400 squares wide I wonder what kind of processor power we would need for that....

I've always felt the Civ3 world was smaller that the real one! I'm glad someone actually computed the difference!