04-07-2002 10:24									#61
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You are a country with a population around 11 million.

If you're not counting the immigrants, yes.

quote: Before this week's events, you knew that 17N members circulated within an area smaller than Central Park.

Not the brians of the organization. We want the big fish not just the small ones.

quote: Despite all that, the Americans have made more progress against Al-Qaeda, a worldwide threat, than the Greek police have made against 17N in over 2 decades.

You have lost thousands of people and are inr esponce murdering more thousands.

I woulnd't call that a success. More like a failure which is in part justified by the fact that half the world doesnt like you and according to some for good reason

We have lost "only" 23 people in a time of 26 years whole years which makes us the best in this field.

Note that I say 23 and I am counting americans and others in it because thats the humanitarian I am.

Really, you cant compare with us. The candles you have to light is testimony enough.

And it's not over yet for you. (according to your own officials - not a matter of if but a matter of when...)

	04-07-2002 10:25									#62
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 #1 to instigate the people to revolt and form a communist/socialist society #2 to get Greece out of NATO and the EU #3 to ridicule americans and westerners

paiktis, welcome to the n17!

	04-07-2002 10:28									#63
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Ned, you wanted Greece out of NATo and that's exactly what 17N wants too... Now if you only look like an arab too you're toast in the US

(I also want NATO dissolved BTW)

	04-07-2002 10:33									#64
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Ned, seriously, ridiculing is one thing, but killing is another.

I can ridicule with words quite a different thing to redicule by actions and killing.

+I like the EU and dont want a communist society just as the the Greeks dont either.

Not that this is your business anyway.

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 04-07-2002 at 10:40

	04-07-2002 11:59									#65
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Ned, seriously, ridiculing is one thing, but killing is another. I can ridicule with words quite a different thing to redicule by actions and killing. +I like the EU and dont want a communist society just as the the Greeks dont either. Not that this is your business anyway.

paiktis, I know you are not a killer even though you share many of the N17 objectives.

I also see the way you and other Greeks feel about the Turks and the Germans - and about Americans as well. To the extent we were involved in your coup, we deserve the current hard feelings.

As to Greece and NATO, I think generally it ought to be dissolved because there is no major external threat to Europe anymore. Moreover, many Europeans want us out. If we insist that NATO continue, we would simply be interfering in European internal affairs by preventing it from developing a European Armed Forces. Unless we have really changed and want to become another British or Roman Empire, we should just bug out.

	04-07-2002 12:04									#66
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Ned, that's fine but how do I know that you're not a killer?


About the feelings against people. Greeks dont have a beef with noone.


Now if americans interfered in the Junta in Greece, yes I think you desrved some form of punishment, as your officials have already received it by 17N, but I dont think that was the correct way because it is not healthy for a democracy to have such a group in its ranks.

Also 17N does not represent the Greek people. The latter were indeed angry at the bombing of Yugoslavia for example but they didnt agree with the killing of the brit attache.

17N wants the favor of the people. It wants the US to act so that the Greek people will rally against the US.

About common ideas with 17N, there is a difference.

I share some of their beliefs as many Greeks do.

For example I agree with the NATO is history part.

But I dont agree with their methods.

	04-07-2002 12:14									#67
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But what you have to udnerstand is that it is history being written right now in Greece!

This is a great point in modern Greek history!
One that will be remembered for a long time.

To rid our country from the spectre of terrorism is a great feat.

It does not matter that this terrorism doesnt threaten us. (since 17N WANTS the favor of the greek people as I said)

What matters is that it is not heatlhy to have it in a parliemenatry, democratic Greece IMO.


This is history written my friend!

	04-07-2002 12:58									#68
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@ned

im from FRG.

quote: Moreover, many Europeans want us out.

indeed....especially I want you out

quote: If we insist that NATO continue, we would simply be interfering in European internal affairs by preventing it from developing a European Armed Forces.

you commit industrial espionage to us in its worst possible ways and on the other hand you abuse yr time by worrying about interference in our internal affairs by nato?!?
we dont need "european armed forces: we have seen enough war crimes in europe ,we dont need to start our owns around the globe as you do!
btw:for us resources are not that important ,cause we kept word and made kyoto become true...and our economy (which u blame near death on yr global low-iq tv channels every day is strong enough ,to compete without having an highest tech trillion dollar "subvention" (dont know the word sorry) system as yours seems to need.i more and more consider this the main reason why you support that armed forces).

quote: Unless we have really changed and want to become another British or Roman Empire, we should just bug out.

dont get my wrong: i like you - simply cause i like human beings.i dont hate you or your country ,but...
...this is ridiculous - absolutely irreal and cynical

take a look at a world map and show me country were you never commited war crime,were you never had stationed troops (peacefully),were you never waged war,were you never incited a revolt,were you never manipulated an election were you never commited really heavy industrial espionage and i will call you angels.

	04-07-2002 13:01									#69
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ah...dont bother me with canada and uk

	04-07-2002 14:11									#70
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quote: Originally posted by seraphin @ned im from FRG. indeed....especially I want you out you commit industrial espionage to us in its worst possible ways and on the other hand you abuse yr time by worrying about interference in our internal affairs by nato?!? we dont need "european armed forces: we have seen enough war crimes in europe ,we dont need to start our owns around the globe as you do! btw:for us resources are not that important ,cause we kept word and made kyoto become true...and our economy (which u blame near death on yr global low-iq tv channels every day is strong enough ,to compete without having an highest tech trillion dollar "subvention" (dont know the word sorry) system as yours seems to need.i more and more consider this the main reason why you support that armed forces). dont get my wrong: i like you - simply cause i like human beings.i dont hate you or your country ,but... ...this is ridiculous - absolutely irreal and cynical take a look at a world map and show me country were you never commited war crime,were you never had stationed troops (peacefully),were you never waged war,were you never incited a revolt,were you never manipulated an election were you never commited really heavy industrial espionage and i will call you angels.

well said.

	04-07-2002 18:15									#71
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 false 17N never threatened Greeks BTW.

ehhmm... I think that 17N has killed more Greeks than "westerners".

17N is no doubt a TO but it has never threatened/targeted the general public. Unlike a lot of other TO through out the world from East to West I have never felt threatened in Greece. Now that changes if you are a tourist in Spain (Basque), in the States (and I am not talking about 911) there is enough "domestic" terrorism, or in the Phillipines with the Abu Sayeff (spelling ) group.

I think that there should be a warning issued to all travelers/tourists that are actually travelling to the States. It for sure is more dangerous to walk in East St. Louis or even parts of Washington DC and other metropolitan areas at night than any other place in Greece or Europe for that matter.

	04-07-2002 18:19									#72
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Pioner you are absolutely right.

Good to see someone who knows what his talking about.

howver I was talking about the Greek people. (or peoples). The general public as you said.

The reason it hasnt is because it wants to get them on its side...

BTW you ambassador here has been very correct about his assesment of both the group and the situation.

	04-07-2002 19:46									#73
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That's correct Paikti!

Unlike the IRA, the Basque Organisation, Al Quaeda, RAF, Aby Sayaff and others the 17N has never ever targeted tourists or the public. That's one of the points that make the organisation different than the rest. I cannot emphasize enough how important this small difference is. It's a TO like all the others but one that doesn't scare the public in Greece and therefore has been spared all the scorn and wrath that others have caused upon them by their own doing.

I challenge anybody that has actually walked in any of the bigger metropolitan areas in the US and in Greece to tell me that he felt safer in the States and I would actually like to hear the arguments.

Greece has been, is and will be (hopefully) a safe country (that's if you take traffic accidents out of the consideration).

As far as the Olympics goes I think they will as safe as in any other country. I only wonder why hasn't the police caught the suspect (an american) of the Atlanta Olympics games bombing yet. CNN had a report lately saying that he's most probably been hiding in the woods for the past years. Now who is incompetent?
Actually that's not all you need (competence) you actually need a little luck and it seems that the Greek police has had a little as of late .

	04-07-2002 19:56									#74
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer That's correct Paikti! Unlike the IRA, the Basque Organisation, Al Quaeda, RAF, Aby Sayaff and others the 17N has never ever targeted tourists or the public. That's one of the points that make the organisation different than the rest. I cannot emphasize enough how important this small difference is. It's a TO like all the others but one that doesn't scare the public in Greece and therefore has been spared all the scorn and wrath that others have caused upon them by their own doing. I challenge anybody that has actually walked in any of the bigger metropolitan areas in the US and in Greece to tell me that he felt safer in the States and I would actually like to hear the arguments. Greece has been, is and will be (hopefully) a safe country (that's if you take traffic accidents out of the consideration). As far as the Olympics goes I think they will as safe as in any other country. I only wonder why hasn't the police caught the suspect (an american) of the Atlanta Olympics games bombing yet. CNN had a report lately saying that he's most probably been hiding in the woods for the past years. Now who is incompetent? Actually that's not all you need (competence) you actually need a little luck and it seems that the Greek police has had a little as of late .

Pioneer again, spot on

Also besides the fact that 17N has not attacked the general public it has also NOT gone through the tranformation that other TO in Europe have gone through.

Namely going from a small, closed revolutionary team of very few people to an all out urban guerilla werfare group.

You may remember that the Red Brigades after a while actually got expanded and tried to procylitisize more and more people into their ranks.

17N never did that and stayed very cloed and thus very difficult to caught.
The lack of training of the Greek police (Greece has the lowest crime rate in the EU accrding to Eurostat) only made matters more difficult and the fact that the public was not threatened didnt turn it against them too.

And you are absolutely correct when talking about luck.
It seems that The Goddess of Luck finally smiled upon the whole thing


Still I'm not overly optimistic. The brains (the leaders) of 17N remain elusive. Still the greek police was never closer to them and also the TO has lost its "teeth" (namely the bulk of its weapons).

	04-07-2002 20:20									#75
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If they really wanted to, the 17N members could recommence a big wave of attacks, like they had done in 1989-1992. All they have to do is make a short trip to Albania or Kossovo, come back with a truckload of weapons and start using them. But they do not want to. After the Saunders murder, they are inactive.

	04-07-2002 20:23									#76
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Axi, I dont think so.

These weapons, if they get them this way, they can be traced.

Albanians and Kosovars will simply talk to the man that gives them more money.

Remember that the arsenal of 17N came almost exclusively from the raids to military and police bases.

And there was thus no links to trace them.

	04-07-2002 20:27									#77
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my worst fear is that all this will create a backlash.

angloamericans, as is amply demonstrated here, dont know what they are doing. and it seems they have us by the balls.

	04-07-2002 20:28									#78
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NEWS FLASH: telephone call for a bomb in evangelismos...!

the hospital where Xiros is held.

	04-07-2002 20:32									#79
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They could just steal the stuff, just as they did in Greece. It's just a smaller risk to steal from out of the country. In Greece they can no longer repeat the stunts they pulled in 1988-1990.

	04-07-2002 20:35									#80
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Well if they go to Albania there isnt even going to be a guard in their posts.

Some years back some Greek soldiers in the border decided on their own to do a small raid for fun in the albanian border with Greece. The albanian guards surrendered immidieatly, their guns didnt work and the baracks with their weapons was unguarded.

It would be a new twist if 17N stole from Albania...

But they'd have to steal rocket launchers and other heavy weaponry...

Still you are right if they steal them, they cant be traced.

	04-07-2002 20:37									#81
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question: the police has detained without charge some people. did it have the right to do that BEFORE the anti-terrorist law came to effect?...

questions, questions.

also the angloamericans will not hesitate for a moment to turn Greece into a war zone by pressuring the government if it serves their interests, as you know. (im talking about possible backlash of 17N)

	04-07-2002 22:23									#82
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"Now if americans interfered in the Junta in Greece,"

You should be grateful to America for it's role in Greek politics. Through the Marshall Plan we built up your country, and we worked to save your country from communism. The reason you are free to spew whatever crap you want is because of America.

"
For example I agree with the NATO is history part."

Go ahead and withdraw. That way Turkey(With the help of it's ally Israel) can finally re-occupy Greece.

	04-07-2002 22:28									#83
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You fought communism for your own sake. with Europe red, US was next.

you help ovethrow the greek democracy

Turkey already tries that with your blessing.

so all in all you are more of a curse than a blessing.

	04-07-2002 22:36									#84
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and the reason I am free to talk is the fighters that teared down the dictatorship which you imposed.

	04-07-2002 23:52									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi " You should be grateful to America for it's role in Greek politics. Through the Marshall Plan we built up your country, and we worked to save your country from communism. The reason you are free to spew whatever crap you want is because of America.

Thank you master, thank you...

quote: " For example I agree with the NATO is history part." Go ahead and withdraw. That way Turkey(With the help of it's ally Israel) can finally re-occupy Greece.

Now that I would like to see!

Do never forget that Greece has given this world it's light... Imagine that if we took all the greek wordes out of your language you wouldn't be able to complete a coherent sentence.

On the other side we did kick the italians butts for about six months, thus diverting Hitler's trooops from other areas and gave the allies time to breathe. Although according to Cage the italians were more interested in mandolins and girls... that and some other feats that we have in our history will surely show you that it wont be easy for anybody to conquer us.

On the other side you did help us with the Marshall Plan to keep the reds out, for your own reasons of course (which suited us fiine!! ).

Now I do not feel that "American Imperialism" is necessarily bad. I am not a fanatic and I am glad that it's the Americans that keep a lot of things in tact. Mind you I've lived longer in the States than in Greece and I know American history much better than I do our own.

But I do not like people saying that my country harbors terrorists, is unsafe because of them, or that Greeks are terrorists. I will repeat, as millions of tourists will surely can assure you, it's a very friendly country with very warm people that welcome our visitors. (Ok, don't get started with the newly arrived illegal immigrants from Albania, etc.).

In my senior year I lived out in St. Louis and people stayed away from parts of downtown and of course East St. Louis because they were afraid now that is something taht you willl not find in any european city and you guys know it.

Keep also in mind that any terrorist attack, from whoever, wherever it's a threat to our liberties and our rights. People that do that ought to be caught and sent to Mars or some place where they will never come back into our society.

	05-07-2002 00:19									#86
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quote: BEFORE the anti-terrorist law came to effect

i think it's already in effect

	05-07-2002 01:07									#87
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quote: Originally posted by seraphin @ned im from FRG. indeed....especially I want you out you commit industrial espionage to us in its worst possible ways and on the other hand you abuse yr time by worrying about interference in our internal affairs by nato?!? we dont need "european armed forces: we have seen enough war crimes in europe ,we dont need to start our owns around the globe as you do! btw:for us resources are not that important ,cause we kept word and made kyoto become true...and our economy (which u blame near death on yr global low-iq tv channels every day is strong enough ,to compete without having an highest tech trillion dollar "subvention" (dont know the word sorry) system as yours seems to need.i more and more consider this the main reason why you support that armed forces). dont get my wrong: i like you - simply cause i like human beings.i dont hate you or your country ,but... ...this is ridiculous - absolutely irreal and cynical take a look at a world map and show me country were you never commited war crime,were you never had stationed troops (peacefully),were you never waged war,were you never incited a revolt,were you never manipulated an election were you never commited really heavy industrial espionage and i will call you angels.

What industrial espionage?

We do not commit war crimes. Some of our officers have. But we have larglely arrested them and punished them.

If you have something else in mind though, please define what you mean by war crimes so we can discuss it, as I don't know what you mean.

As to getting the US out of Europe - agreed. You can do anything you want about security, including continuing with your present weakness if that is your choice. But without its own armed forces, Europe would have no means influencing global events.

I personally would like the US and Europe to continue to co-operate on matters. We share a common culture and political systems. We have a lot more in common that we have differences - especially compared to anyone else in the world. I would hope you would agree that we should be "friends."

	05-07-2002 01:31									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I personally would like the US and Europe to continue to co-operate on matters. We share a common culture and political systems. We have a lot more in common that we have differences - especially compared to anyone else in the world. I would hope you would agree that we should be "friends."

I second that, there is no other way to avoid conflict (of any kind) other than working together. In this case it's double meaningful for the reasons you have stated. I see no reason to dislike america's policies, especially when I know that we are now enjoying the fruits of their efforts, combined of course with our (european) to preserve freedom and peace as much as possible in Europe.

	05-07-2002 03:56									#89
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quote: What industrial espionage?

project echtelion, ups... I mean echelon

	05-07-2002 05:31									#90
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion project echtelion, ups... I mean echelon

Never heard of it.