04-07-2002 14:39									#1
	Apolyton July Tournament Results and Spoilers Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This thread is for results and spoilers from the July tournament. If you're competing in the tournament, you should read it only after you have maps from all seven other civs.

Last edited by nbarclay on 13-07-2002 at 04:30

	07-07-2002 05:43									#2
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When I set up an archipelago game, this was NOT what I expected. I've seen pangeas with more civs cut off from the main land mass. Oh well, it's been an interesting and unusual game in any case.

This might well have been a perfect game to research Warrior Code first and try to hit other civs with archers before they could build spearmen (or at least before they could build enough of them). But because it was an archipelago map, I didn't want to risk the possibility (albeit small) of a militaristic start with no one to fight. So I opened the game researching Pottery and building granaries in my first couple cities instead.

Then, as I was expanding, Rome started to get demanding. I refused and they declared war. The entire conflict consisted of one of my warriors successfully defending against a Roman warrior, but in the meantime, my expansion was slowed down by the need to build some extra troops.

I competed all-out in the tech race through the better part of the ancient era, but while I was able to keep up through most of of it and even held a slight lead through the early part, I couldn't sustain my lead. When I got Literature and started looking for possible trades, I found that the AI leaders had Map Making, Code of Laws, and Philosophy. I was able to pull even with trades, and then dropped back on a 40-turn path to Republic.

Around that point, I decided I needed more territory, and India looked like the logical target. It was big and powerful, and held multiple luxuries while I had none at the time. They also had a source of iron that I most definitely wanted.

My horsemen destroyed the iron city and captured Delhi, and then I gained two more little towns in a peace treaty. I could have kept going, but I wanted some libraries to build up my culture and get in a position to research when I got Republic. Unfortunately, the gems from Delhi were the only luxuries I obtained in the initial conflict.

When I finally got Republic, though, it wasn't a good time to switch governments. I was just a few turns away from finishing the Colossus in Babylon, and I didn't want to change governments during a wonder race. Then Greece beat me to the Colossus by a scant two turns, and I had to delay the change of governments still longer switching to another wonder. In the end, I built the Hanging Gardens and inadvertently triggered a golden age - forcing me to delay my change in government yet again. (I might have gone ahead and switched if I had had more tiles where production would have been improved in a different government, but given the makeup of my empire, letting my golden age play out seemed like the wiser course.)

In the meantime, I had fought a brief but somewhat bloody war with China after refusing to give in to THEIR demands. Both sides lost a few units, but no territory changed hands.

During the golden age, I decided to finish off India. They had two more luxuries near my territory (including the dyes I could have grabbed if I'd moved faster), and also had silks much farther away.

The year is now 440 AD and my golden age just ended. All India has left (at least that I know of) is one city, a new one that won't survive capture. Two horse units are two turns away from striking at it, and more are following in case they fail. In the meantime, my golden age has given me a small tech lead that looks like it should last considering the libraries and marketplaces I've been building. More specifically, I'm the only one with Theology, but I just sacrificed my monopoly on Engineering to get Feudalism and French furs.

I don't think I can keep the forces clamoring for a Republic in check any longer, nor do I especially want to. I've been ruling as a despot for too long as it is. The one good thing about how long I've taken to change governments is that I should have enough luxuries that, coupled with the benefits of the Hanging Gardens, switching won't cause a lot of happiness problems. (Not only do I have three luxuries of my own, but I have trades for French furs and ivory.)

Nathan

	07-07-2002 10:14									#3
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I'm now up to 1040 AD and my large cavalry force mostly upgraded from horsemen (thanks to Leonardo's Workshop) just finished its first war. After the peace negotiations, Rome no longer has any cities on the mainland although it does have four cities on a nearby island. The big question is how much farther my fifty-seven surviving cavalry plus the reinforcements I build can go.

My best bet is probably to hit France and China next since they're the ones closest to getting riflemen. I'm one turn away from the industrial era, and those two nations have three techs to go if they don't slow down for optional techs (like Military Tradition) along the way.

Nathan

	08-07-2002 12:50									#4
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The conquest of France proved to be no real problem. The only things that even slowed Babylon's cavalry down as they carved through that nation were distance and terrain. Only a single musket unit made an appearance through the entire war, and replacements more than outnumbered losses. In 1130, Babylonian cavalry captured the last French cities on the continent and the French ceded all but two of their island cities in a peace treaty.

The conquest of China, which ended eighty years later, was bloodier. China had a significant number of musketmen, enough that it even dared declare war on Babylon. But nowhere near enough to stem the tide of Babylonian cavalry, and China found itself left with only a single city to call its own. And Babylon still had fifty-seven cavalry units left to press on its plan for world conquest.

It's now 1300 AD and Babylon has just completed the conquest of the Great Ring. France and Babylon share an island in the north, Rome and Greece share an island between the Roman and Greek homelands, and Greece still has its home island. Greece is in the industrial age, but hasn't gotten Nationalism yet. My cavalry force still numbers in the high fifties (it's remarkable how closely losses and replacements have balanced), and I should be able to finish Greece off with cavalry even if they do get riflemen.

I've been deliberately avoiding building temples in most of my conquered territories because I want to see if I can get a conquest victory without razing. I'm almost positive I'll be able to pull it off.

My palace is now in northeastern Persia to help reduce overall corruption in my empire (including at least parts of Greece once I conquer it). That's costing me a little cavalry building capacity (since the Persian cities have lots of civilian improvements to build), but the move is roughly a break-even financial proposition in the short term and can only become more profitable over time.

Nathan

	12-07-2002 04:36									#5
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The bloody struggle I'd expected trying to take Greece never materialized. Instead of pressing ahead and researching Nationalism, the Greeks took a detour through Navigation. I'd also spotted a Greek frigate and suspected they might have others, and feared that my unprotected galleons might suffer as a result. But one frigate and a caravel were scuttled in port in the opening days of the war (on an island away from the Greek homeland), and no other frigates showed up until the war was essentially over.

So when my cavalry landed (supported by a handful of infantry upgraded from spearmen), Greece didn't stand a chance. The last Greek city fell in 1390, completing my conquest of the world. (Of course I had to end the turn before the game acknowledged my victory, giving me an official year of victory of 1395.) My score came out 4883. I'll post the save game later.

Nathan

	13-07-2002 10:32									#6
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I felt cramped for space most of the early game. Everyone one else was building cities all over the place and i was stuck taking the poor spots. I had to keep telling myself 'the ai has to contend with this map as well'. India had the best land, but they were also the cheapest ones to buy tech from (every game they are in). So, i built up alot of horsemen and went after Rome.

Not knowing that any wonder will trigger the GA (i just found out), i planned accordingly. My FP got built 1 turn, i captured the Pyramids (Rome) the next turn, and built the Great Library the following turn and got my GA. It all made sense. That was 580AD.

Now that i had a FP and some land, my eyes turned to the Aztecs. So, right after chivalry and a major upgrade i took them out. I signed alliances for each war just to keep everyone focused on the enemy and not me.

The rest of the middle ages were a time of peace. I made sure to keep my military strong. Right after nationalism, i decided that India just had to go. Hehe... then they invade my territory with a few riflemen and naturally i tell them to leave or declare war. They don't leave, so now it is the world against India. A couple turns into the war, my ally France, attacks me. I signed alliances against them as well and finished them off before the indians.

Now it is Chinas turn and it is cavalry against infantry. I always start cranking out artillery after infantry are on the scene, but enough cavalry always do the trick. About this time, i decide i will go conquest even though it will be a late game one. So i start razing cities, finish China off with tanks and go after Persia.

I moved my palace a couple times trying to get it further away from the FP which was basically right in the middle of the empire. It last ended up on the island in the inland sea.

Greece had cities everywhere. I took out the cities on 'my' landmass then shipped tanks over to the various islands. I finally got modern armor just in time to finsh off the last two cities. Even got a leader on the last turn so i rushed the manhatten project with it.

I definately overestimated the AI in this game and took my time and wasn't aggressive enough until later. It made for a long tedious game.

I like the island maps with minimum water, but the other settings sucked. Looks like Nathan beat me by about 500 years and 570 points. 1910 conquest - 4310 score (ever notice the HOF give you one point less?)

Attachment: watorry-0702, 1908 ad.sav
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	13-07-2002 10:44									#7
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quote: Originally posted by watorrey (ever notice the HOF give you one point less?)

I've definitely noticed one-point discrepancies before, although I haven't noted the direction.

Nathan

	13-07-2002 22:59									#8
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I've definitely noticed one-point discrepancies before, although I haven't noted the direction. Nathan

I suspect it is a rounding discrepency.

	14-07-2002 14:56									#9
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Roughing It

“We're playing with civ-specific abilities turned off so no one has any techs to trade with you until they research them - and vice versa.”

That feature of the July tourney suggests a strategy of researching straight toward literature and pre-building the GL. I’m not sure this would work every time. But I was lucky enough to get the GL and it triggered a GA.

I really like how turning civ specific abilities off slows the early game down. BTW when you get alphabet, no one else will have it an you can trade for everything. No barbs or huts is also good from that perspective. I was leery that we would be on an island and the absence of contact would make this strat fail.

I started the usual densely packed city buildup. India was very close by and Aztecs to the South East.

Traded first tech (alpha) for pottery, wheel, warrior code, ceremonial burial, and bronze working.

That trade revealed we had horses already hooked up. So, I intended to build a lot of chariots.

However, Mr Gandhi wandered by and noted our pathetic defensive stature. India declared war in 1870 BC, forcing a switch to archer production. Fought off India’s rush and eliminated Bombay in 1400 BC. Headed for Bangalore. It turned out there was a horse/iron location just south of the Indian capital and I made sure to resettle that promptly. Sued for peace in 900 BC.

By 50 BC, closing in on GL and holding 900 gold.

India builds HG, so It’s off to war we go in 280AD. China comes in on India’s side. After that war is successfully concluded, expanded west. It was a mistake not to have a world map by this time. I mistakenly killed off India’s last city without extracting a map.

Later, China signs a RoP, admittedly offered only to head off a stack coming my way. China then attacks anyway, violating the RoP. This is around 910AD.

Bribe France with two lux to declare on China. France does, and China slowly grinds them down, razing all the cities on the narrow mountainous path leading to the tundra separating Bab from China. China fails to resettle the cities. So, I grab that space. It looks like WWII will take place up there.

Although Bab has expanded to take over all of India and parts west, the position is terrible from a geopolitical perspective. We’re in the middle of three aggressive civs --- Rome, Aztecs, China. They have nowhere to go but to attack us. And if we attack any of them, the back door is open.

Could be worse. Despite the warlike start we are number 2 in GDP, 2 in land area, 1 in population, a Republic, and headed toward military tradition. The games will soon begin.

	16-07-2002 16:18									#10
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AI Roughing It

Nathan set out to give us a rough time in this game. Despite the best laid plans, however, it hilariously turned out to be the AI civs, one and all, that were plunked down in deserts, tundra, and mountains. The humans in this game, after elimination of the pesky Gandhi, had command of the only broad expanse of green space in the game, at least they did after a couple of millennia of jungle cutting.

As a result, the AI economies are universally in the tank after the middle ages. In my game, Babylon was coasting to a huge tech lead in the industrial era, barely even trying, and certainly not even thinking about a switch to democracy. As stated elsewhere, what's the point?

To further create a one-sided end, Babylon virtually cornered the rubber market. Probably a SS win would be the humane thing. But it's a good game to try for conquest before domination kicks in. Or, it’s a good game to have any fun you want, for that matter.

Nathan. Just an idea. Maybe you could do what Vel did for the mini tourney and find us a good, tough, "roughing it" start. Having played the first few thousand years yourself and left us in a deep hole, we could then try to pull off a come-from-behind win.

	16-07-2002 23:59									#11
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I'm not going to finish this game.

1) The 1.29 patch comes out on Friday
2) It's only 400A.D. on my game and its going to be an easy win from here. I don't want to put in the hours to finalize this win.

Here is my game so far.

Built 4 cities fairly close together and put barracks in all of them. I was going to archer rush India for some prime territory, but my beeline to horse riding was finished before my 1st archer (and a horse popped up on my road network).

I horse rushed India for 3 cities (one with dyes) and accepted peace for everything they had (com w/ 3 civs, a few techs and some gold).

I kicked out a round of settlers and a couple rounds of spearmen. Then I started to stockpile horsemen (distance was my decision not to go with swordsmen). I put about 10 units down by the Atzecs and the rest up by India.

I started my 2nd war with India to get (wine, gems, hopefully a leader and more space). They allied with the atzecs and I had a 2 front war. Of course I was going to take out the Aztecs after India my units I left down there just in case went to work.

I got everything I wanted and sued for peace when India and Atzecs had about 3 cities each. I used the leader to rush build my FP. I have a very productive and dense core that will outproduce everyone. I have switched over to Republic to build for a while. Its 400 A.D. and I went to bed.

Now I see that the patch is coming out Friday. I leave on vacation and will not finish this game b4 then. I probably will not finish at all.

If I continued I would beeline for knights. Take out India, Atzecs, and Rome. Build and beeline again for calvary and take out everyone else.

I agree with statement that "Roughing It" didn't pan out well. But I enjoyed my first try at civ abilities disabled. Thank you nbarclay for starting the tourney, but I'm jumping ship.

	17-07-2002 11:59									#12
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The name "roughing it" refers to the settings, not to any special effort to make a really tough game. Indeed, for a general-audience game, I'm reluctant to make things too tough because I want the less experienced players to at least have a chance. I wouldn't have minded if the game were a little harder - it turned out that taking out India and clearcutting the jungle provided a really fantastic core compared with what the rest of the world had available. But terrain still played a rather significant role in interfering with how far Babylon could expand without fighting and in slowing down fast-movers. All in all, I'm satisfied with how it came out.

Nathan

	17-07-2002 16:16									#13
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Yes, thanks Nathan. We really enjoy playing these games jointly and sharing stories. We're all responsible for our own game enjoyment, and some of us are apparently just a little too masochistic to like it when we've had good luck on the scale this game offered.

	17-07-2002 19:19									#14
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The slowing of the game caused by starting with no techs has been a pleasure, even though I love civ traits and UUs. My initial take was that it wasn't worth expanding early into Aztec territory, given its arid nature, and the jungle to the north also proved to be a deterrent. As a result, I decided very early on to keep Babylon modest in size and go for a space-race win.

In the ancient era I focused on tech and infrastructure, which gave me the Colossus and an increasing culture lead. Rome declared war around 200 BC because I wouldn't pay tribute, but because I had no luxuries (or, for a while, iron), India was earmarked for a quick war. When I attacked, Babylon was first in population, literacy, production and commerce... and last in land!

I took my two target cities quickly with archers, then had to deal with the arriving Romans. An early GL gained me a future FP, and I kept sparring in order to gain a proper tech ransom. While researching monarchy (I forgot these Babs aren't religious), Persia declared war - no tribute - and soon gained an alliance with the Aztecs. It was time to make peace with India and Romw, and focus on my southern flank. India signed on 130 AD, as I entered the Middle Ages, and Rome twenty years later. I then shifted my unusually mixed forces to the south, where I destroyed the invading allied forces, then took the northernmost Aztec city, which I intend to keep as a bottleneck stopper.

At this point it's 300 AD, and Babylon is no longer first economically, but #1 in size and population. We are tied for the tech lead, but about to enter anarchy en route to republic. Reading the prior posts, I reconsidered going for a conquest win, but have been fighting too many wars (Vel's WW3 scenario) lately. The FP has been built on India's borders, because I'll expand in that direction just enough to acquire more luxuries. And then it's on to space, as originally intended.

The Babylonian empire, heading for republic, dreaming of the stars:

Attachment: civilization iii pict 300.jpg
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	20-07-2002 16:40									#15
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What's so rough about this game? Excellent starting position with a river, horses and plenty of shielded grass. I moved 2 steps to settle on the hill by the river.

Attachment: early bc.jpg
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	20-07-2002 16:48									#16
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I was quite slow in the start, as I wanted to settle my cities in positions that were good for the long term. I expanded peacefully until about year 0. I can't remember in which order, but Aztecs, Rome and India all declared war on me (but only one at a time). With plenty of horses, I took what I wanted from them and made peace. I used my first leader to build FP in a former Indian city to get a big and productive empire.

Attachment: fp placement.jpg
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	20-07-2002 17:05									#17
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I have only had a few turns of peace each time before some other stupid civ decided to make war on me. I never started a single war. Sometimes I had to fight on 3 fronts, which was the only real challange so far. Despite republic, I have not seen any war disorder, thanks to Hanging Gardens (captured from India), Bach's (built by a leader) and plenty of luxuries. Even without cathedrals in most of the cities!

I have only had a few setbacks:
1) The roman city with furs flipped back to them after the peace agreement
2) Another Roman city flipped back and took 15 of my 25 knights with it. AARRGGHH.
3) The Chinese are coming through France with massive knight and cavallery stacks. They razed one of my luxury cities and India (who I was in peace with) resettled the spot before me.

It is now 1550 and I just went industrial. I'm in war with China who sends hordes of cavallery, but I will mobilize and start to build rail, so I have good hopes to fend them off. India and Rome are pushed away from the good land in the middle. Here's the score table at AD 1525:

Attachment: power 1525.jpg
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	20-07-2002 21:28									#18
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"Roughing it" was applicable to this game, but mostly in reference to the AI civs. I've never seen the AI respond more poorly to adverse topography. Their cities stayed surprisingly small, and their research rates were abysmal. (This made the game easy, but refreshingly different and therefore interesting). It certainly justified my immediate intent to expand slightly into India's jungle and grassland, then retrench. By keeping the other civs in relative check, Babylon finished second in size despite limited expansion, and first in every other meaningful category, including population.

I was the tech driver - that is, trading tech for tech or gold at favorable terms - from the start of the Middle Ages. I sold tech throughout most of my industrial era, and eventually stopped except when more gold made a difference in my research rate.
I did achieve a couple of things I never had before: the building of a maxed science city (Colossus, Copernicus, Newton, SETI), and had the biggest tech lead I've ever had when I launched in 1810 - the AI was still researching mass production.

As a result, warfare was Civ2-style child's play. No one ever managed to get a significant force to Babylon's borders. I warred twice against India - taking the luxuries around their capital and later, uranium - and once against the Aztecs to take an isolated city with oil. When China declared war once, I allied with France, which slowly lost its continental holdings. By then I had tanks, and proceeded to conquer back for France all of its lost lands. In fact, I created a true buffer zone all around Babylon.

To appraise the buffer, note that France had been reduced to the island in the northwest; every other French holding is a gift from Babylon.

Attachment: civilization iii pict 0002.jpg
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	20-07-2002 21:33									#19
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Here's my 1808 saved game, one turn before launching. My score was 2838.

Attachment: civ3 autosave 1808 ad.sav
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	27-07-2002 02:55									#20
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Domination victory AD 1948 at score 3300 something (see image). Boring game with a lot of slow, grinding war to wear down the other civs. I had only a few turns of peace in total from AD 0 to AD 1948. I let them start all wars so that war disorder was minimal. I took control of all 8 luxuries by 1500 (IIRC). Did some mobilisation to speed thing up, but the ability to build temples and marketplaces in conquered cities is more worth than the ability to build troops a little faster.

Now I will finally download the new patch.

Attachment: score.jpg
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	09-08-2002 18:34									#21
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is there an august game?