05-07-2002 21:25									#61
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Right Boris, but again, the Dec of Indep. was a message to England that said, "Hey, you're not the boss of us"...

It isn't law. And if you read the constitution., it doesn't mention God anywhere. So Lincoln, you argument has been shot down... you are wrong... bend over, grab those ankles, and TAKE THAT CANE

	05-07-2002 21:26									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Pythagoras Christianity has a strong foundation in free will, it just so happens that the mark of a good christian is to let God's will overcome that free will by choice.

It was not until Thomas Aquinas that the Doctrine of Free Will firmly established. Even so we still have John Calvin.

	05-07-2002 21:27									#63
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I wasn't saying otherwise, Sava, just nitpicking at UR WHO THEN CHANGED HIS POST!

	05-07-2002 21:28									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov A Deist is a theist.

A Deist was as close to an atheist people got in the 18th century.

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov EDIT: No fair changing your post, UR!!!

I thought of a better counterpoint.

	05-07-2002 21:58									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Um, Lynchburg is named for a person with the last name Lynch, not the act.

Well he was probably still "redneck scum". Besides, let's not try to confuse this issue with facts!

	05-07-2002 22:05									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Right Boris, but again, the Dec of Indep. was a message to England that said, "Hey, you're not the boss of us"... It isn't law. And if you read the constitution., it doesn't mention God anywhere. So Lincoln, you argument has been shot down... you are wrong... bend over, grab those ankles, and TAKE THAT CANE

Done in convention by the unanimous consent of the states present the seventeenth day of September in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth.


In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,


G. Washington-Presidt. and deputy from Virginia


New Hampshire: John Langdon, Nicholas Gilman


Massachusetts: Nathaniel Gorham, Rufus King


Connecticut: Wm: Saml. Johnson, Roger Sherman


New York: Alexander Hamilton


New Jersey: Wil: Livingston, David Brearly, Wm. Paterson, Jona: Dayton


Pennsylvania: B. Franklin, Thomas Mifflin, Robt. Morris, Geo. Clymer, Thos. FitzSimons, Jared Ingersoll, James Wilson, Gouv Morris


Delaware: Geo: Read, Gunning Bedford jun, John Dickinson, Richard Bassett, Jaco: Broom


Maryland: James McHenry, Dan of St Thos. Jenifer, Danl Carroll


Virginia: John Blair--, James Madison Jr.


North Carolina: Wm. Blount, Richd. Dobbs Spaight, Hu Williamson


South Carolina: J. Rutledge, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, Charles Pinckney, Pierce Butler


Georgia: William Few, Abr Baldwin

--------------------------------

Well let's see now. What "Lord" do you think they were referring to back then? Clue: It is now 2002 A.D. And why was the word "our" not redacted before they all signed the document?

	05-07-2002 22:10									#67
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Is Urban Ranger doing some editing again. Shame on him...

	05-07-2002 22:25									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Hey Pythagoras, is that why Christianity has missionaries trying to convert people across the world? Is that why I have people knocking at my door soliciting their religion? Is that why the mob ruled majority of my country is too selfish to get God out of government?

They are just bad christians. Most of which seem to be American . I should add Im not christian just an interested student of philosophy, religion and the like.

quote: It was not until Thomas Aquinas that the Doctrine of Free Will firmly established. Even so we still have John Calvin.

Ever read Boethius or Confessions of St Augustine? Boethius craftly argues that both free will and divine preknowledge are compatible. In Augustine's trials and tribulations he is not coerced to become a christian, but does so out of his own choice. In fact his own mother, a christian, watches him go through trials and tribulations with manacheism (sp?) displays incredible patience and rejoices the day he comes over. Maybe the idea of "free will" was not as developed until Aquinas, but these believers converted out of choice and not out of fear. Compared to the polytheistic Gods of the Greco/Romans, the christian God loves all of his children equally. He wants them all to be saved however, but does not send down an army of angels to force them to. He lets them figure out their own paths, that of course the wisest men will find is the path to God through the teachings of Jesus. This is supposedly why god (the christian God now, not Yahweh) will not respond to you if you say "God! if you want to prove your existance, make lightning strike that tree!" God wants you to come to your conclusions about him on your own and not via a 'burning bush' or the like.

	05-07-2002 22:37									#69
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That is exactly the intention of the founders when they provided for freedom of religion and the prohibition of an established national church. John Locke and Roger Williams reitterated those concepts clearly. The key word is "compulsion". There is no compulsion for anyone to practice Christianity or any other religion. If anyone thinks that they are compelled to practice Christianity in this country then they ought to visit San Francisco.

	06-07-2002 00:49									#70
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Actually, the government switched to C.E. two years ago. BCE... before common era... CE.... common era... you don't get out much do you, Lincoln... I guess spreading your religious hoopajoob is a full-time job.

	06-07-2002 01:02									#71
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All you have to do now is change the date on the constitution and you will be all set.

	06-07-2002 04:07									#72
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the first reply to this post by Sava .. says it all.

	06-07-2002 04:29									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln That is exactly the intention of the founders when they provided for freedom of religion and the prohibition of an established national church. John Locke and Roger Williams reitterated those concepts clearly. The key word is "compulsion". There is no compulsion for anyone to practice Christianity or any other religion. If anyone thinks that they are compelled to practice Christianity in this country then they ought to visit San Francisco.

Then shouldnt we attempt to secularize our creeds, pledges, mottos, the sorts of things that define our secular, seperated government? There is a compulsion (no matter how minor) for school children to say the pledge every day that I disaprove.

	06-07-2002 04:40									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Actually, the government switched to C.E. two years ago. BCE... before common era... CE.... common era... you don't get out much do you, Lincoln... I guess spreading your religious hoopajoob is a full-time job.

I dont think Lincoln is being that zealous about religion, he is trying to get us to acknowledge our western inheritence, which we should in a setting of a history/civics classroom. I have no problem people understanding how these ideas evolved.

BTW here's the 1st ammenment we keep talking about :
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Cant the adding of the word God to any government endorsed creed/pledge or whatever be interpreted as a law respecting the establishment of a religion?

	06-07-2002 04:44									#75
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I personally do not care if they secularize the whole thing. I think that 90% of the referrences to God are meaningless and empty anyway. I don't think that it pleases God to see his name used in vain. It is now just another political tool that is tossed around like a football. I am just trying to preserve history. If ever America was a Christian nation it certainly is not now. I see no reason to pretend but let's face history head on.

The pledge as it now stands is simply a statement of the fact that America's laws were based upon the precept that God was the ultimate judge and authority under which the nation operated. Of course the nation operates without regard to God anyway so we may as well remove the phrase from the pledge as far as I am concerned. At least it wouldn't be so hypocritical.

	06-07-2002 04:58									#76
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quote: I am just trying to preserve history.

The "under God" part of the pledge was added in 1954. The Pledge didn't have "under God" longer than it did. So how does preserving "under God" in the Pledge preserve history?

	06-07-2002 05:05									#77
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That was the history of 1954.

Or... regardless of Eisonhowers intentions or motives the phrase that was inserted would have been constitutional anyway. The fact of history is that the nation was supposed to be "under God". So what's the big deal?

	06-07-2002 06:19									#78
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wrong Lincoln.. this country is freedom of religion and freedom FROM religion...

	06-07-2002 06:20									#79
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the truth hurts, don't it?

Attachment: darkages.gif
This has been downloaded 34 time(s).

	06-07-2002 06:33									#80
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"the truth hurts, don't it?"

Well, yes, it can be painful at times. How are you feeling?

	06-07-2002 06:38									#81
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I like how your signature is from a guy who got killed by Christianity...

	06-07-2002 06:40									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Pythagoras Cant the adding of the word God to any government endorsed creed/pledge or whatever be interpreted as a law respecting the establishment of a religion?

quote: "[W]hen all is said and done, the danger that 'under God' in our Pledge of Allegiance will tend to bring about a theocracy or suppress somebody's beliefs is so minuscule as to be de minimis. The danger that phrase presents to our First Amendment freedoms is picayune at most"

Hopefully this will get more play in this thread.

	06-07-2002 06:43									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I like how your signature is from a guy who got killed by Christianity...

Sorry to dissapoint you but Galileo was not "killed by Christianity" but he was in fact a Christian.

	06-07-2002 06:47									#84
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Oops, I was thinking of every other scientist throughout the "dark ages". Galileo was just convicted of heresey and sentenced to live in isolation until his death in 1642... but great news... in 1979, the pope anulled his conviction!!

EDIT: OH WOW, In 1992, the pope lifted the ban on Copernicun theory... way to go guys...(Copernicun theory circa 1616)

	06-07-2002 06:49									#85
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I've got to go to bed. I'll see you later.

	06-07-2002 06:52									#86
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G'night... may God have mercy on your soul.

	06-07-2002 07:51									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln The fact of history is that the nation was supposed to be "under God". So what's the big deal?

If that were true, how could the Founding Fathers have so carelessly omitted that phrase from the Constitution? Why not, "We the People, Under God..."?



Because...that's hogwash. The Founding Fathers, be they men of religion or not, wanted a secular society and specifically created one in the Constitution. They specifically made the national motto "E pluribus unum," not "In God We Trust." You've got some bizarre notions of facts of history.

We're secular, so get over it!

	06-07-2002 07:57									#88
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I love you Boris!


[reporter banter]
So tell me sir! What does it feel like to destroy a straw man?
[/reporter banter]

	06-07-2002 08:04									#89
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You know the way the pledge is said now if "under god" is removed a new phrase will have to be added in its place to preserve the rhythm of the piece.

I was just thinking, perhaps we could put "without equal" in its place. OTOH the phrase "above the law" has a certain appeal to it also.

Any other suggestions on the topc of phrases to fill in the gap left by the removal of the phrase "under god" from the pledge of alliegance?

	06-07-2002 08:07									#90
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I'd say "with tolerance" but apparantly believing in God is more important than respecting other's beliefs.