04-07-2002 23:06									#1
	On future bureaocracy Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

This thread may be very ahead of its time, but I want to ask the question anyway. I was not a member of apolyton while the civ2 dem games were being played, so I have no idea how the late game desicions were made, but from playing both games, the late game of civ3 usually involves dealing with far more complex issues than the late game of Civ2 and thus a new system might be needed.

We chose to play with 16 civs, and while many may die before long, we may still face 9-10 othe civs in the late game, all with their own diplomatic issues.

Today we have 4 warriors (or is it five?) In the future we may have mass armies of 300-400. Today it takes us 3-4 turns to make one units, in the future, we could spew a unit a turn (or more under communism).

We have 3 workers, in the future we may have dozens.

We have two cities, who knows in the future.

We have no resources, and no trade routes. this will change...

So forth and so on. What becomes clear is if a democracy is to flourish, with the citizens having an important say, we may have too, as all governments through history, create a significant bureaocracy to make the decisions that will be made. The rule of a few men is fine today (as it was in the real 2000bc), but come even 1700ad [hoping we get there] and this will no longer be true. Since constructing any sort of bureaocracy will require some amount of constitutional change, I think we need to starrt thinkin about this now. It has begun with the issue of ambassadors, or first non-governmental bureocrats.

My most basic suggestion is to create departments, of which the ministers would be the heads. The ministers would appoint the members of these departments, and give them jobs according to the needs of the ministers. Each ministry would have to put out a report on its status, and recommendations, the day before a scheduled turnchat. The common citizen will get to go over these reports and make suggestions and or comments that the ministers could then take with them into the turnchat. The reports can vary in detail, but need to be informative. Perhaps the now somewhat lowly senate could gain greater powers (and perhaps senate elections could become something of importance) by gaining an amount of oversight over the departments, to insure adequate info is provided. In fact, the ministerial reports could be addressed to the senate itself.

These are just suggestion on the future, but I do think we need to get moving. Even if this current polity of ours dies a horrible death(hope not), swallowed by the endless darkness of the jungles, I don't think this should be our only civ3dem game, and maybe in the next one, we will get a kick ass beinning situation.

	05-07-2002 01:24									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I agree

	05-07-2002 04:24									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The time will come when things have to expand. For now, just the cabinet member himself is enough to handle everything that is going on. Later on that won't be the case, but we can change things once the need arises.

	05-07-2002 05:07									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Unorthodox suggested we make a generic amendment for minister aides, be they generals, ambassadors, city governors etc.
I sincerely urge him to make a prepoll thread about this.

	05-07-2002 10:46									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

In the Civ2 game, once we had more than about a dozen cities, the Ministers tended to poll (and report to the Prez) on general build queues/unit orders etc. As far as unit movements went, the SMC would only mention what he thought we should do with the units exploring - discussion and polls would follow on their direction and orders, but NOT as specific as exactly which moves to make each time.

In some cases specific moves have been discussed - but only in tricky situations, eg where we have units preparing to attack a city/civ, in which case a plan would be created for all of these units for the next 5-6 turns, and usually only minor alterations to unit movements would be made before actual gameplay.

Thus, once we have 2-300 units, most of them would be permanent defenders, and would only be moved in response to Barbs, invasions etc, and we might have 15 units in a particular place that need general orders only. For example, we have a mix of Spearmen and Catapults. General orders would be to always station a Spearman with a catapult, leftover Spearmen might fortify in several choke points, all units would attack targets of opportunity, but otherwise await reinforcements before taking on cities.

That should be all we need for the majority of situations - it is only when we are conducting offensives against difficult/important targets that detailed orders need to be considered. The SMC may need to delegate somewhat then, but if we keep orders general where they are not needed to be detailed, we can save a helluva lot of complication - for a while at least.

	05-07-2002 21:46									#6
	Tired of ads?

I was just thinking that if we did that, create policies on what to do in general and only poll or obtain feedback on trickey or unceratin actions, that would have us come up with a list of policies (or rulebook) that would encompass the vast majority of actions that humans take without thinking about. This would allow the President to quickly play the unthinking parts of the game freely (since policies describe the ordinary actions no one would oppose). Then we would be left only with those controversial actions that require more mental thought, which would require ministerial input and perhaps polls.

By describing these policies explicitly, we will have made clear what the predominant safe strategies are in typical human play and stated them in a manner that can be easily translated into a ruleset.

Couldn't these policies be used to help programmers develop a ruleset for an improved AI?

This will be better than whatever a single programmer could have developed on their own (no offense to Soren).

This would prevent humans from using AI exploits as the AI would not leave such exploits anymore. No more easy victories over the AI because it doesn't know how to defend artillery.

	06-07-2002 02:59									#7
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Captain Couldn't these policies be used to help programmers develop a ruleset for an improved AI? This will be better than whatever a single programmer could have developed on their own (no offense to Soren). This would prevent humans from using AI exploits as the AI would not leave such exploits anymore. No more easy victories over the AI because it doesn't know how to defend artillery.

Good idea, Captain!

	07-07-2002 01:23									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Unorthodox suggested we make a generic amendment for minister aides, be they generals, ambassadors, city governors etc. I sincerely urge him to make a prepoll thread about this.

Why start a new thread when this one is available:

Persoanlly, i think the are far too many ministers with several jurisdictional issues and problems. I agree with Trip that in time the constitution will have to change, which is 100% historically accurate. Still, while GD (game date) 1900ad is still far off, and we might not make it there in this dem. game, though I hope we do, I think we will need an entirely new system of govement at that time , which, following historicl trends, will have to be far less reliant on personalities and more on the system, with rule of Law replacing rule of Men.

here are two main problems with the current system that would inhibit actions in the future and slow things down drastically:

1. The president has too much power,
2. There are too many ministers,
3. Too many descisions by Polling (plebescite)

Why are these problems?
1. The problems is not tht the Prez. migh buse power, but that for moves to be legal, the Prez. must execute them or pprove of them. This will involve tooo many thyings in the future and make turnchat too long.
2. Jurisdictionl nightmares
3. Too long to wait, and issues might be too complex for polling from an uneductated populace (not everyone will have read the game report relegiously)

I suggest then a totally new system of governance, with three branches, political, judicial, bureocratic.

Bureocracy: There would be only 4 ministries and 4 minister:

Defense: Control over all units with the exception of workers and settlers.
Interior: Control over city production, IE, Public works.
Foreign: Control over all foreign issues, including trade.
Finance: Control over all taxes, luxury, tech research.

Minister, and their vice ministers, would still be elected personally.

Each Ministry would, after each tunchat, issue a report to the senate (coming up) about their actions during the turnchat, and their priorities, plans of action for the future turnchat.

The Senate: The Prez. and VP are the leaders of the senate (max. 20). The Senate will create the comprehensive plan of action for the game as whole that the ministries will have to follow each tunchat, taking into account the plans and recomendation of the ministries themselves. These plans are not eact, but general policies, like more factories, increase tax revenues, etc. Senators are able to hold unofficial public sentiment polls and so forth, but they are responsible for the decision they mak (might ignore public sentiment if they think its wrong). thought they will have to explain result to voters.

Senate is elected along Parliamentary lines, with votes for Parties, not individuals.

The courts: The ourt will investigate and judge any complaints by the senate or by ministries of improprieties by other members of the govrnment. Private Apolytonians may bring up their own issues. Those that use the court as a way to attack theose thy diagree with would be heaily punished (banned from turnchas, ever serving in gov, so forth).

Court members (max 3) must be aproved by 2/3 of senators and ministers.

Turnchats: The Prez. would have the official game at the start, and would be responsible for storing it, wih the VP having a copy. During the turnchat, the Prez. will send the game to the first ministry, which will carry out its actions. When done, it will send the game to the prez. again, who will then send it to each remaining ministry until the full turn is played out. While taking actions, ministries must post their actions, with their discretion on how much ino they provide, though after the turnchat they must provide a full report to post online. Citizens are entitled to ask questions of what has happened and provide suggestions, thouh ministries are not expected to give answers or take the suggestions, except those of the Prez.

These are some basic ideas, not fully formed, but I feel such a system may make for a more decive and structured future game, with elections and politics takin a greatr role in the future as the issues at hand grow.

	07-07-2002 01:28									#9
	Tired of ads?

i like the idea. everyone could have a role...

	07-07-2002 01:33									#10
	Remove this text

hi ,

GePap , intresting post , but the court should have at least 5 members , ...

have a nice day

	07-07-2002 01:39									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

hi ,

one thing that is needed is an office of information , to do calculations , give information , collect it , so that when the government needs something they have it at ones , ...the government could say ; this and that , make a poll out of it , ..
the save game , here it is , post it , give it to the people who need it , ...stuff like that .

it would save the government time and therefore the game would go faster .

have a nice day