06-07-2002 06:27									#1
	Air Combat Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Here is an idea for air units. You can attack with more than one unit at a time, say two bombers with a jet fighter as escort, you can also defend with more than one unit at a time. So if a group of units enters airspace and is intercepted by say two fighers, you could have a little air battle (potential for cool animation) which could have many outcomes. This would reflect real life, as air groups rarely act without support from one another.

Also, bombing needs to be fixed. I've bombed massive stacks of units in open plains with dozens of stealth bombers and inflicted only minor damage. As tech advances so should accuracy. The animation in the game would have you believe stealth bombers are just better versions of B-52's, but they are massively more complex (one stealth bomber costs 2.5 billion dollers, or five times its wight in gold, which, by the way, I find disgusting).

While I'm at it, we need an air interceptor unit, something that would take shots at passing aircraft but could also be destoryed by them.

-ben

	06-07-2002 10:23									#2
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Yeah, aa guns! (Having flashbacks to Axis+Allies....)

	06-07-2002 16:00									#3
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Now this is a really good idea. Indeed: the SAM Missile Battery must have a Zone Of Control so he also fires on passing Aircrafts.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Williams The animation in the game would have you believe stealth bombers are just better versions of B-52's,

So they are, it calls the B-2 and it is a Stealth Bomber.

	06-07-2002 17:11									#4
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I agree that the Stealth Bomber needs to be stronger than the regular B-17 Bomber to maintain game balance, especially since you will be using it against Mech. Infantry and Mod. Armor instead of Infantry and Tanks. Air Power in general seems a bit weak, so I modded the air units to the following values:

Fighter: 2.1.0(4) (2.0.2)
The Fighter has ROF increased from 1 to 2

Jet Fighter: 4.2.0(6) (4.0.2)
The Jet Fighter has ROF increased from 1 to 2

F-15 Fighter: 4.2.0(8) (8.0.3)
The F-15 has its Operational Range increased from 6 to 8, its ROF increased from 2 to 3, and its Bombard increased from 4 to 8. This makes it as strong a bomber as the B-17.

B-17 Bomber: 0.2.0(6) (8.0.3)
The B-17 has a 50% chance of winning against a Fighter and a 33% chance of winning against a Jet Fighter if the morale levels are equal.

Stealth Fighter: 0.2.0(6) (8.0.3)
The Stealth Fighter is now the same strength as the B-17, but has the Stealth ability which reduces the chance of intercept from 50% to 10% (using the default intercept chances).

Stealth Bomber: 0.0.0(8) (12.0.4)
The Stealth Bomber has its Bombard increased from 8 to 12 and its ROF increased from 3 to 4. I did not give it a defense however, so the player is left with the decision whether to build the Stealth Fighter, which is cheaper and has a chance of surviving an intercept, or the Stealth Bomber, which has more bombard power.

	07-07-2002 01:29									#5
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What about being able to build squadrons, like you can build armies with a GL? Same goes for fleets...

	07-07-2002 02:37									#6
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hi ,

there should be a mobile ground SAM-unit , ...

have a nice day

	07-07-2002 08:44									#7
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Flak defense in cities...?

	07-07-2002 09:00									#8
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What exactly is the point of the stealth fighter? It can't intercept, and the stealth bomber does more damage. I really can't see any reason anyone would ever want to build one, unless it can do something that I missed...

	07-07-2002 20:57									#9
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , there should be a mobile ground SAM-unit , ... have a nice day

Smoking Mirror is working on a really cool mobile flak gun based on an old reman WWII design. He was talking about it at civfanatics. I don't know exactly how its going to work, like if it is possible to give ground units air supperiority abilities. I have been tinkering with the idea with some help from that zulu98... guy, though haven't been able to test it yet. I've givin the radar station unit that I downloaded airsupiriority and a range of opperation and aridrop abailities (and i made it immoble). I just plop it out in the field somewhaer and hopefully it'll shoot at any attacking aircraft. I wish I could make it shoot at passing aircraft.

Btw, have I mentioned how I was completely disappointed with air units in civ iii in general? I've tweaked them heavily (making them much more effective, but making them much more expensive) and I am still upset. I kinda liked how the civ ii air units worked batter, though i do like some of the new ideas with civ iii air power.

Kman

	07-07-2002 21:56									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Palleon What exactly is the point of the stealth fighter? It can't intercept, and the stealth bomber does more damage. I really can't see any reason anyone would ever want to build one, unless it can do something that I missed...

I THINK (and I could be wrong because I don't have much experiance with stealth fighters) they have a chance of destorying aircraft sent to intercept them, which is one reason why we need groups of air units. ("Your mission is to bomb that road, and even though we have dozens of other flight groups that can escort you and can fly at the same altitude and all, you're on your own, good luck".)

	07-07-2002 22:29									#11
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Well, bombers do that too. Most of my bombers kill the fighters sent out to intercept them, and stealth fighters have by default a 5% chance of being intercepted, if you build them just to kill something that 5% of the time, we'd be better of getting rid of stealth fighters and replace them with something more useful like mobile SAM's.

	07-07-2002 22:33									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Williams I THINK (and I could be wrong because I don't have much experiance with stealth fighters) they have a chance of destorying aircraft sent to intercept them, which is one reason why we need groups of air units. ("Your mission is to bomb that road, and even though we have dozens of other flight groups that can escort you and can fly at the same altitude and all, you're on your own, good luck".)

Stealth bombers don't need escort, that is why they are called stealth bombers. Their radar signiture is very low and comparable to a signiture of a flying bird(a really big bird). That defeats the porpuse of having a Steath B. if the one escorting it is not.

Stealth b. don't have the ability to defend themselves. If they are detected it will be far too late.

	07-07-2002 23:44									#13
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Maybe a little off the topic of air combat, but why don't they have some kind of reconnaissance type fighter/bomber/plane?

That way we can have our U-2s shot down and never apologize! Eisenhower and his thick german skull!

Hail the hardheads!

	08-07-2002 00:01									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman Smoking Mirror is working on a really cool mobile flak gun based on an old reman WWII design. He was talking about it at civfanatics. I don't know exactly how its going to work, like if it is possible to give ground units air supperiority abilities. I have been tinkering with the idea with some help from that zulu98... guy, though haven't been able to test it yet. I've givin the radar station unit that I downloaded airsupiriority and a range of opperation and aridrop abailities (and i made it immoble). I just plop it out in the field somewhaer and hopefully it'll shoot at any attacking aircraft. I wish I could make it shoot at passing aircraft. Btw, have I mentioned how I was completely disappointed with air units in civ iii in general? I've tweaked them heavily (making them much more effective, but making them much more expensive) and I am still upset. I kinda liked how the civ ii air units worked batter, though i do like some of the new ideas with civ iii air power. Kman

hi ,

, intresting , what is needed is a mobile SAM unit , one a city or so that allows a high level of protection when in a stack , ....

have a nice day

	08-07-2002 00:10									#15
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Yes, mobile SAM, with ZOC

	08-07-2002 00:27									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Yes, mobile SAM, with ZOC

hi ,

not to large , ....only one tile , ...

have a nice day

	08-07-2002 01:04									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Yes, mobile SAM, with ZOC

Same thing with the SAM sites you can build in cities. At the very least, it should be able to shoot at planes that bomb squares that are being farmed by the city. So if it tries to shoot your irrigated railroad square, it engages. Because I build SAM in all of my city, and when I do, enemy just bombs improvements. I never once have seen my SAM site fire.

	08-07-2002 02:21									#18
	Remove this text

Artillery and SAMs should both have ZOC.

	08-07-2002 06:38									#19
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I am not familiar with this ZOC term. Please excuse my ignorance, especially if it is something of military purpose, which i assume it is, because I usually know about that stuff.

Kman

	08-07-2002 07:11									#20
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ZOC is zone of control. I believe modern armor has ZOC? Correct me if I'm wrong...

What it is, is if a unit has a ZOC of 2 squares, then that unit has a chance to attack any enemy unit that passes within those squares.

Someone else can perhaps explain it better, or add on to what I've said

	08-07-2002 07:52									#21
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ZOC just means that if an enemy is next to you, and tries to move to anouther square next to the same unit, you have a chance to attack it. In previous civ games, ZOC prevented movement at all, in this one, you can move, you just might get attacked in the process.

	08-07-2002 09:14									#22
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I'm assuming we have another Zahn fan? Eh Palleon?

	08-07-2002 09:52									#23
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Yeah. I prefer my spelling better though, been using it for a good 6-7 years now, it looks much prettier. And easier for people to remember.

	08-07-2002 09:57									#24
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I'm gonna have to stick with Pellaeon. This is bringing back memories...maybe I'll reread the trilogy...

	08-07-2002 12:45									#25
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The point about Stealth Fighters is that they are way cheaper than stealth bombers. 240 Shields for a Stealth Bomber versus 120 Shields for a Stealth Fighter. Makes you roll out twice the number of stealth fighters in short time. Of course with Bombard Strength of 4 for the fighter you can forget about attacking units with them.

	09-07-2002 06:51									#26
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Thats why I eddited all my air units. I think they are wayto weak if you play with them as they come. Even bombers, I think should be devestating, at least as much as artillery, so I increased all bombard strengths (for bombarding ground units too) and definately enabled lethal land and sea bombardments for air units.

Kman

	09-07-2002 06:54									#27
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Alright!

first post on the second page! I am the MAN!"