07-07-2002 02:54									#1
	Debate: What do we want? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Do we (the citizens not the ministers) want to have a poll every time a unit has to make a move? I donīt

Do we want a poll every time a city builds a unit and we have to decide what to build next? I donīt...

Do we want a poll every time we have to decide if we should declare war against another nation? YES...

Do we want a poll every time a minor decision has to be made? I donīt...

Do we want a poll every time a major decision has to be made? Ofcourse...

What would happen if we said yes to all my questions?
Then our little game would not be finished until christmas...2010...
As we have it now we have ministers that decide all of those little things that we donīt want to bother with...

And I for one think that itīs a great system...BUT:
If the ministers are to decide these little decisions they allways have to be present when these decisions are to be made, and when is that: The turnchats...

Do we want a vice president and a trade minister take care of our nation alone? I donīt and that happened in the 4th July turnchat...
I know that many of the ministers probobly send orders to the Prez or the vice Prez before the turnchats if they canīt make it... but what happens if the situation changes a little during the first few turns of the turnchat and the minister in charge is not present? The the turnchat stops with just a few turns played and if that continues the game wonīt be finished until maybe 2005...

Do we want this?
I donīt...

What do we want?
I want the ministers present during the turnchats or the turnchats or they will loose credability at least in my eyes... and you donīt want to loose that ...

	07-07-2002 03:01									#2
	Re: Debate: What do we want? Support Apolyton

quote: Do we (the citizens not the ministers) want to have a poll every time a unit has to make a move? I donīt

heh I think it would be funny if each person could represent a single unit and be entirely encharge of them, given orders. of course we're not ready for that yet. Try back in 30 years.

quote: Do we want a poll every time a city builds a unit and we have to decide what to build next? I donīt...

No, but there needs to be a discussion between ministers because this effects everything.

quote: Do we want a poll every time we have to decide if we should declare war against another nation? YES...

duh

quote: Do we want a poll every time a minor decision has to be made? I donīt...

hmm lets take a vote on that.

quote: Do we want a poll every time a major decision has to be made? Ofcourse...

What are elected officials for then?

quote: What would happen if we said yes to all my questions? Then our little game would not be finished until christmas...2010...

Well I'm expecting this game to be done 2004 right now. Perhaps you had envisioned something else.

quote: What do we want?

banana flavored beer

	07-07-2002 03:03									#3
	Re: Debate: What do we want? Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Fatwreck Do we (the citizens not the ministers) want to have a poll every time a unit has to make a move? I donīt Do we want a poll every time a city builds a unit and we have to decide what to build next? I donīt... Do we want a poll every time a minor decision has to be made? I donīt...

I think at some point in a couple months or so, our community will be in a huge shock. Needless to say, choosing every indivudual move by polls, or even turnchat debate will destroy the game... at some point it will be necassary for ministers to act more independently, even when the "this is a democracy, we all decide" people complain. The Civ 2 Demo Game is done when the ministers send orders to the President, he plays by himself for three or four turns, then reports on it. If we tried to do that here, every person in government would get impeached.

	07-07-2002 03:21									#4
	Re: Re: Debate: What do we want? Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Epistax heh I think it would be funny if each person could represent a single unit and be entirely encharge of them, given orders. of course we're not ready for that yet. Try back in 30 years. No, but there needs to be a discussion between ministers because this effects everything. duh hmm lets take a vote on that. What are elected officials for then? Well I'm expecting this game to be done 2004 right now. Perhaps you had envisioned something else. banana flavored beer

I think itīs obvious that you didīnt see my irony in most of those questions I made, or do you really think that I was serious when asking if we should have a poll when we were to declare war upon another nation...if you thought so you must be really naiv...
The message in my post was not in the questions... if you did not see that plz re-read it, it seems like you only read the questions...

quote: Originally posted by Trip I think at some point in a couple months or so, our community will be in a huge shock. Needless to say, choosing every indivudual move by polls, or even turnchat debate will destroy the game... at some point it will be necassary for ministers to act more independently, even when the "this is a democracy, we all decide" people complain.

This is my exact point...but IF the ministers are to act more indepentantly there is another HUGE reason why they MUST at all cost be present at the turnchats donīt you think?

	07-07-2002 03:27									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

i know sarcasm, you don't know reverse sarcasm, or do you? or do you not? (continues like this for 70 more sentences)


Anyway, I believe in time ministers will basically be in control of everything because there will be too much for people to vote on. Your post wasn't needed. Neither is this one, but it's here none the less.

	07-07-2002 03:28									#6
	Re: Re: Re: Debate: What do we want? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Fatwreck This is my exact point...but IF the ministers are to act more indepentantly there is another HUGE reason why they MUST at all cost be present at the turnchats donīt you think?

Yes, but that won't happen. Things will break down once things get more complicated, I fear.

	07-07-2002 03:43									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Epistax Anyway, I believe in time ministers will basically be in control of everything because there will be too much for people to vote on. Your post wasn't needed. Neither is this one, but it's here none the less.

If I understand you right you also want the ministers to act more independantly... and that is why my post is important because it seems that the ministers themselves seem not to want that... if they wanted that they would attend every turnchat and if for some reason they canīt then they should have a stand-in otherwise the president doesīnt "know" what do do and the turnchat ends after just playing a few turns...

quote: Originally posted by Trip Yes, but that won't happen. Things will break down once things get more complicated, I fear.

Trip, always the optimist... seriously do you think that, Iīve been thinking about that to: Is civ3 to complex for a demogame or is some other reason or do you just have a hunch?

	07-07-2002 04:08									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Thanks.
I just think that the civilian body here is being conditioned to one thing, which will be impossible to impliment later on. And I feel that that will cause problems when people do realize that we can't do what we're doing now forever. That's it, I'm not predicting armageddon.

	07-07-2002 04:24									#9
	Put an end to popups!

What do we want?

WAR!

	07-07-2002 04:39									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

War...HUH!

Good God man!

What is it good for?!

	07-07-2002 04:45									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Family Law used that as their theme song. That was such a funny show. Almost as funny as Judging Amy.

	07-07-2002 08:27									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

ab-solutely NOTHING!


(sorry, I couldn't help myself)

	07-07-2002 09:53									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

As Trip said, the game is going to become ever more complex and... dare I say it... tedious if decisions are having to be constantly discussed. At the moment, we have a very pure form of democracy *hmmmm* where all decisions are voted on or are at least discussed....
But I think more independancy for the ministers is needed... they were voted to make decisions, and not just to move workers around.

Ice

Edit- Typo

	07-07-2002 09:58									#14
	Tired of ads?

Although I got involved to discuss things, I do wanna see some progress... at the moment... conversation outweighs action, and this aint good IMO.

	07-07-2002 16:19									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It is nice that we all get involved in every individual move in the early game, and that the Ministers (particularly Uber and Ninot) seem to have the time to make such detailed plans. However, this ain't gunna happen for very long. I predict the end of this once we have America, or France, or whatever - our first set of conquests. We will have far too many units.

The trick will be making the transition from individual move discussion to discussion about orders for groups of units. Say, send those ships exploring East - and then it should be at the Minister's/Presidents discretion how best to do this, unless someone volunteers a plan. We would still need detailed planning for, say, a first strike, but only in these tricky circumsatances.

Once the SMC and Prez start to get REALLY busy, then it must happen. I ask that everyone consider this, think about how they would deal with it if they were the Ministers whose jobs suddenly became impossible, and now support this change to more general unit move discussions.

I know - I have just finished a marathon 8 hours of play as President of the Civ2 game. Yep, 8 hours. The gameplay was only about 3, and looking at all the discussion and preparation was 5 hours - just imagine how long it would take someone in a more complex game like Civ3 if they had move at a time orders.

	07-07-2002 17:34									#16
	Suffering from ads?

Yeah, it's a question of scale - on a small scale, every little thing can and should be voted on. However, once our empire is much larger, descisions will have to be made on a larger scale, as the smaller details are at that point much less important. (although still important, which is why the president must be good at playing Civ, but I don't think someone who isn't would run for president, so that's not a problem).

	07-07-2002 19:07									#17
	Put an end to popups!

hmm well actually things wont change much

1) As far as I've seen, we haven't have any discussions on the specific movement of any given piece, but the actions generally.

2) We will always have discussions as to what any given city should be building-- even when we have lots and lots of cities. This comes from different views of how to grow an empire and differences in peace/war time units among players.

3) These cases and plans we look at wont change much from their current form, and we could even stick a Yay or Nay to each one.

Pretty simple what I am saying is I don't see the think that will be changed, upon closer inspection. It's just not there.

All in all it'll be alright.

	07-07-2002 22:08									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I like the fact that the people get to voice their opinion of actions. I would like to see this done as long as possible, but it should stop when it starts to hinder progress. I have a feeling proposals are going to get more and more general in nature. For instance: Instead of saying "I want this unit to explore north west of our city into the jungle", the proposals will just become "I want this unit to explore". And that's ok. As long as we can get some sense of whats going on, I'll be happy.

--Impact

	07-07-2002 23:46									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

In the future we will have to construct a systm in which the cabinet is given wide latitude in their actions during turchats to make the desicions they think are best while then making them more open to accountability by voters if the citizens feel they screwed up royally. We may have to move to more representative dem. from direct dem.

	08-07-2002 00:54									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

hi ,

more turns

have a nice day

	08-07-2002 00:54									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sometimes ministers can't make it to the turnchats, however. I know I can't always make it. Should office be restricted to those who happen to live in a time zone that coordinates well with when turnchats are? What if turnchats occur at 3am where you live? You can't be a minister then? To me, the answer is to have deputies or chat reps to represent a minister when s/he is absent. I would personally be happy to have one, if anyone is interested.

	08-07-2002 00:58									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Trip That's it, I'm not predicting armageddon.

*Sigh*

	08-07-2002 01:01									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

during periods of anarchy can we randomly slay ministers?

	08-07-2002 01:04									#24
	Remove this text

theres nothing like a good old fashioned purge

	08-07-2002 01:04									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 Sometimes ministers can't make it to the turnchats, however. I know I can't always make it. Should office be restricted to those who happen to live in a time zone that coordinates well with when turnchats are? What if turnchats occur at 3am where you live? You can't be a minister then? To me, the answer is to have deputies or chat reps to represent a minister when s/he is absent. I would personally be happy to have one, if anyone is interested.

hi ,

if they cant make it , let their number two from the office play , ....

more turns
or , ....

no more import of banana's , you can take that to the bank

have a nice day

	08-07-2002 02:11									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 To me, the answer is to have deputies or chat reps to represent a minister when s/he is absent. I would personally be happy to have one, if anyone is interested.

Hey! Donīt steal my stuff :

quote: Originally posted by Fatwreck and if for some reason they canīt then they should have a stand-in