08-07-2002 00:21									#1
	Zone of Control Put an end to popups!

I haven't seen any posts about Zone of Control, not at least deeply discussed.
Therefore I have a question, or wondering...

It says in the documents that Zone of Control exists for certain units, and that all units inside fortresses gets the benefit of ZOC.
In the game I'm playing now, The Romans declared war on me and started to send masses of Riflemen at me. The strange thing was that even though I Had fortified troops in fortresses on mountains between two of my cities the Romans actually marched through them to get to my Saltpeter resource to take it out.

If the ZOC is the same as in Civ2, he shouldn't be allowed to move through.

Now, why doesn't ZOC work for me?
I have the 1.21f patch and have noticed this over and over.

Please, explain this to me...

	08-07-2002 00:32									#2
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ZOC doesn't work the same. Basically, it isn't a ZOC.

ZOC is now where a unit will on occassion take a shot at a unit moving through it's 'ZOC'. It's not every time, but I've seen it enough to know that it works as they intended.

Problem of course is that it's impossible to create a defensive line in Civ3 that means anything - they will send cavalry between units, even units right next to each other (diagonally) into your rear area. Stupid.

But that's the way it works...

Venger

	08-07-2002 01:46									#3
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quote: Problem of course is that it's impossible to create a defensive line in Civ3 that means anything - they will send cavalry between units, even units right next to each other (diagonally) into your rear area. Stupid.

This is your opinion and I for don't share it. Although current ZOC imight not be perfect I prefere it to was it was in CIVII.

	08-07-2002 02:31									#4
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Dunno if the ZOC was the same as in SMAC as it was in Civ2, but i really liked SMAC's model. It gave a more tactical advantage, rather than just knocking off one HP (which isn't really that useful).

	08-07-2002 07:03									#5
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Maybe it isn't as useful to people, but it is more accurate. In general, it's difficult to make a line that's impossible to get through. If you want to stop people from getting through, you should have to make a solid line.

	08-07-2002 13:03									#6
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i tend to use fortified units on rail/road access to my citys and then if necessary build a complet line across smaller land peninsulas.

	08-07-2002 15:16									#7
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My Strategy in the early ancient era is to mass produce Warriors and send them out to form a solid line in a strategic gap or as close to my rivals as possible.

Some games I have even built a solid line consisting of up to 25-30 warrios, just to hinder the AI from expanding. It works really well, but before the line is completely solid, it's a pain in the ass to move your troops back and forth to hinder the AI settlers. Cause they won't give up unless the line is solid. If they see a gap in the other side of the continent, they will continue moving.
If there are no gap, they will go some other way or return to one of the cities.

But in defensive consideration it's not that usefull. Having 20 pikemen i a line actually weakens your defense. It's too easy for the AI to attack you then. So I only use this tactic in the early stages and in peacetime....

	08-07-2002 18:23									#8
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I agree with venger. The CIV3 'ZOC' needs to be re-thought. The current "ZOC" allows more "blitzkrieg" type attacks compared to CIV2 which is good IMO. On the negative side though, a Chinese rider, for example, can move 3 spaces through your defenses lines in one turn and cause havoc with rear echelons. Given that there is no supply in CIV3, this is an unreasonable situation that results in the use of solid lines of defensive units that are used as a moving wall.

	08-07-2002 19:00									#9
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That's why I like the chinese a lot, that and the fact that they are an industrious nation cleverly combined can make force others to dance on my music .

Seriously though I do like the ZOC in Civ 3 more than in Civ 2, which does not mean I am totaly satisfied. Some minor adjustments could maybe do the trick. I'd like to see the defending unit being able to eliminate the intruding unit not just shave 1hp off! On the hand maybe some kind of penalty for the intruding units may do the trick too!

	08-07-2002 19:31									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Methos But in defensive consideration it's not that usefull. Having 20 pikemen i a line actually weakens your defense. It's too easy for the AI to attack you then. So I only use this tactic in the early stages and in peacetime....

...although the solid line picket is actually helping me out in an Industrial Age war, but more from the standpoint of saving me a diplomatic step every turn, which IMO, is somewhat of an idiotic reason to have to use this type of strategy.

Currently I am fighting a war with the Americans to the north. My southeren front is with the French, who have a sizable military. I was able to ally with the French, who now continually march their 60+ unit armies into my territory itching to get at the Americans themselves. Each turn I have to ask the French to stop trespassing, and they comply. I do not want the French to get any American cities out of the deal, as they are the closest rivals that I have. So I set up a picket line with a bunch of Immortals to stop the trespassing (though I had to use approx. 30-40+ units to shut off the border).

But I agree with Venger on this - the lack of a ZOC actually reduces strategic thinking. There is now little need to set up any defensive strongpoints (other than at natural chokepoints) because units can simply walk pass them to get at the more important targets. At least with a ZOC, you would have to defeat the entrenched unit(s) and might take damage in the process of doing so to get at the target.

Couple this with the infinite railroad movement ability (and building a network of rails that covers every tile in your empire is incredibly easy, and ensures that you will retain the ability to move at will in your borders) and your best bet in a defensive struggle is to make sure you have a sizable force that can move instantly to any point in danger in your borders. There's no need to set up a defensive ZOC picket line to give you the time you would of needed to move your forces into position. The only strategy involved is building massive amounts of defensive units - giving little thought to movement abilities too.

	08-07-2002 19:32									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Rasputin i tend to use fortified units on rail/road access to my citys and then if necessary build a complet line across smaller land peninsulas.

i've actually build lines of 30+ troops in a line across a continent to slow the AI from colonizing it. i was the aztecs and the jaguar warriors helped a lot

	08-07-2002 20:26									#12
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I think ZOC could be more powerful. I think that fortresses should be made to have Civ II ZOC (can't move past), while units out in the field should have Civ III ZOC (takes a pot shot).

I think that your unit will "take a shot" at passing units every time, but the animation only shows successful hits.

	08-07-2002 20:40									#13
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quote: But I agree with Venger on this - the lack of a ZOC actually reduces strategic thinking. There is now little need to set up any defensive strongpoints (other than at natural chokepoints) because units can simply walk pass them to get at the more important targets. At least with a ZOC, you would have to defeat the entrenched unit(s) and might take damage in the process of doing so to get at the target.

I agree on this one. Strategically ZOC does nothing. With ZOC there could actually be a realistic frontwar. Without ZOC, World War 1 would probably have looked different.
But as said before. Maybe only Fortresses should gain the kind of ZOC used in Civ2.
But, thinking again, a pikeman (defense of 3), together with mountain def. bonus and fortress would make him a 7.5 defender. A swordsman with attack 3, would only have about 30% chance of winning, given the same hp.
Maybe this would too much wreck the balance of the game. Don't know. Could be interesting to try out...(Firaxis hint...=))

	08-07-2002 21:20									#14
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That's a could idea dunk999, thus the signifigance of having a fortress will be increased.

Does anybody know if you can mod the ZOC? I mean besides flagging a unit to have ZOC!

	08-07-2002 22:07									#15
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Another take on dunk999's idea would be to have the fortress make a hit every time. You can walk past, but you will lose hit points in doing so. Or it has some very high probability of hitting you, in any case. The AI would avoid them, which for practical purposes is like the CivII ZOC.

	08-07-2002 22:37									#16
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I like the way ZoC works now. However, I think the ZoC "shot" units get should be strengthened, and all units after riflemen should have ZoC. Furthermore, such ZoC "shots" should be potentially lethal.

Therefore, if you wish to take your Cavalry and charge inbetween two forts with 3 riflemen and a cannon each, you can. But your Cavalry will die.

I do not like the CivII-style "no, you cannot move there" ZoC.

Unfortunately, my suggested changes in the CivIII ZoC rules would probably require some serious patching from Firaxis.

-Arrian

	08-07-2002 23:13									#17
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer That's a could idea dunk999, thus the signifigance of having a fortress will be increased. Does anybody know if you can mod the ZOC? I mean besides flagging a unit to have ZOC!

No you can't, it's been hard coded.

I've been mentioning the same thing, about Forts having Civ II type ZoC, for a couple of patches now. However, I did discover that if you put a bombard unit in a fort, and space them two squares apart, you can still have a pretty good defensive line. Especially when you get Artillery. You can turn an enemy unit to mincemeat before it reaches your cities.

	08-07-2002 23:22									#18
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That is another good idea Arrian. Just so long as it is almost 90% certain to kill that cavalry.

	08-07-2002 23:29									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I definitely think the ZOC now is better than Civ2. Since we know each square represents about 100sq. miles, there is no way a Warrior should be able to stop troops from moving in the square beside them. The way it works now is good, but I agree with the rest that it should be more deadly, with a better chance to hit and damage.

	09-07-2002 00:20									#20
	Put an end to popups!

warriors don't have ZOC's in Civ3 - Tanks do

	09-07-2002 01:03									#21
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Don't know much about zoc, as I almost never have it some into play. I usually line my borders with defensive completely, including the coastline, as soon as feasible. This usually means total enclosure around infantry.

The AI will rarely attack if you do this. Probably the primary reason is that if you do this, you most likely have an extremely large army compared to them. But even if they do attack, it beats stacked defense. The reason is simple: Defense in Depth. If they advance, you use your railroads to rearrange you defenders in front of them again, while counterattacking if convenient.

	09-07-2002 01:07									#22
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I actually like the idea of having fortresses have CIV 2 type ZOC. Perhaps to avoid it from being exploited, ZOC should only extend 1 square around the fortress, thus, if players want to seal their borders entirely, it would still requite lots of fortresses or troops.

Also, I think fortross ZOC should only be in effect when it is manned.

	09-07-2002 01:37									#23
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quote: Originally posted by dexters Also, I think fortross ZOC should only be in effect when it is manned.

Of course.

	09-07-2002 01:44									#24
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quote: Originally posted by dexters I actually like the idea of having fortresses have CIV 2 type ZOC. Perhaps to avoid it from being exploited, ZOC should only extend 1 square around the fortress, thus, if players want to seal their borders entirely, it would still requite lots of fortresses or troops. Also, I think fortross ZOC should only be in effect when it is manned.

I agree, I think that's one of the best ideas for ZOC I've heard so far.

	09-07-2002 02:48									#25
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Ok, but there should still be a chance of a unit being able to get through weakened or not! That is a very good idea indeed.

	09-07-2002 11:45									#26
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You could give units a flag called 'infiltrate' which gives them a chance to pass through a ZOC.

Venger

	09-07-2002 23:22									#27
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The combination of no ZOC and no supply restrictions turns military campaigns in the industrial age and beyond into a silly exercise of gigantic hordes of troops clumping together and wandering around for the offensive, or clumping hordes of troops in a city or on a resource in the defensive.

A CivII style ZOC actually allowed you to form a LINE.

Austin

	10-07-2002 00:58									#28
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I agree Austin, and with Venger too. It's ridiculous that your troops have to hold hands across an entire region to simulate a battle line. I get this absurd image in my mind of my army saying, "Red Rover, Red Rover, send the Russians Right Over."

Proper fixing of this ZOC nonsense could probably be the single greatest fix that could immediately add major strategic elements to the game (and add realism at the same time).

-Apolex

	10-07-2002 01:07									#29
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You gotta look at ZOC from a historical perspective tho, to really understand what's going on.

For the record, I think the current implementation SUCKS, but that is just this gamer's opinion.

ZOC's work for detailed simulations and purestrain wargames because they represent reality.

A unit of tanks isn't just a couple of tanks sitting idly in a field. It's a squadron of tanks, trained to fight together. And with them, they've got guys with guns, and other guys with shovels to plant mines, and other guys with maps....anybody who comes anywhere near these guys WILL have to deal with them, and not just...."Oh look! There go some bad guys! What say let's give them a passing shot from our main gun?"

No...what'll happen is that the guys with the tanks you're trying to get around will move to intercept you, blocking your path. You want by....fight 'em.

The trouble is, you can't implement that well in civ, because there is no "draw" in combat....well, sorta, but not really. There's Kill, Be Killed (in some cases, there's withdraw, but that's hardly the norm).

In detailed wargames, it's actually somewhat rare for a unit to be wiped out entirely. It'll weaken, route, get disrupted, maybe even get captured, but rarely is it distroyed to the man.

Happens every time in Civ, tho, and that's why its so hard to effectively model ZOC.

In purestrain wargames, the lines are at least somewhat static (semi-permanant, let us say)....and entering that line puts you in the kill zone of, usually NUMEROUS units.

Can't effectively model that in Civ, either, what, with Infinite move rails and such.

ZOC was too strong in Civ2 and SMAC, but it's weak to the point of being a waste of time (rather like pollution), now.

-=Vel=-

	10-07-2002 01:48									#30
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The game needs the concept of supply. It shouldnt be hard to implement and perhaps could be added as a stand-alone patch for those with low-end cpu's that couldnt handle the extra calculations.