08-07-2002 18:25									#1
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In my current game as the French, I've discovered industrialization. Gay Paris is a bustling metropolis with 40 shield production - without a factory. There are still 2 mines to work in the radius, as well. My question:

Should I complete the Ironworks in this city? If yes,
Should I also build a factory?

My concern is pollution. Obviously, it'd be a big boost to have a city that could complete a major wonder in 5 turns, or one turn infantry construction. How much pollution should I expect from a city that produces 80 or 120 shields? How many workers will I need just to keep suburban Paris clean?

I've posted a poll in case people don't want to post a reply...

Last edited by Marquis de Sodaq on 08-07-2002 at 18:30

	08-07-2002 18:33									#2
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Take a look at this beauty ... and then build both! The worst pollution comes from population. Just don't let the city grow above 20.

	08-07-2002 18:45									#3
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Build ironworks first, so there's no risk of the resources expiring, then go build the factory. A city can only produce a max of 1 pollution per turn so all you need is enough workers to clear the pollution square in one turn... which is less of a problem for France since they're industrious. And having a super production city is great fun.

	08-07-2002 18:45									#4
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Thanks, Sir Ralph - that's the sort of city I envision! I still need to lay railroads, as well, so 150 shields sounds within reach...

	08-07-2002 18:50									#5
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quote: Originally posted by DrFell Build ironworks first, so there's no risk of the resources expiring

That doesn't matter. The right to build the IW remains.

	08-07-2002 19:02									#6
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Even if the resource expires before you start building the wonder? Never knew that, I have only build iron works once, and only had the chance to a couple times.

	08-07-2002 19:05									#7
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Build both. Number of shields doesn't affect pollution. Population causes pollution, and the existence of certain improvements (including factory and iron works) causes pollution. So the factory will cause the same amount of pollution in a 40 shield city as it will in a 20 shield city.

Like DrFell said, a city can only pollute one square per turn. So just make sure you keep enough workers around to clear the pollution in one turn and you'll be fine.

	08-07-2002 19:07									#8
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quote: Originally posted by DrFell Even if the resource expires before you start building the wonder?

Yes. I checked it in a game with a crappy one-shield-island-city. It could build the IW. Of course, I did not even try it. Soon after, the coal depleted. The right to build the IW remained. Apparently, the IW capability is a fixed flag in the data structure of the city.

However, I don't know if the city gains the right to build the IW, if a new source of iron/coal is discovered.

	08-07-2002 19:12									#9
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I am thoroughly confused ! What is an IW? For a second there I thought I was in Colonization Forum! Have I missed something!?!

	08-07-2002 19:17									#10
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer I am thoroughly confused ! What is an IW?

What about Iron Works? just a wild guess...

	08-07-2002 21:30									#11
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Ok, I feel like a fool here but I will play it cool and ask again

I know that IW means Iron Works but what is Iron Works... ...and yes I've pllayed the game and not just once....

	08-07-2002 21:53									#12
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer Ok, I feel like a fool here but I will play it cool and ask again I know that IW means Iron Works but what is Iron Works... ...and yes I've pllayed the game and not just once....

Its a small wonder that you get a chance to build if you have both Iron and Coal in your city radius. It can give a pretty large production bonus as seen from Sir Ralph, 153 shields per turn, and in a recent game I had 135 (175 during Golden Age, wish it was that much the whole time) shields per turn in a city with lots of coast that produced no shields.

	08-07-2002 21:56									#13
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Pollution is thus not a big concern. The massive shield production will allow any helpful improvements to curb it later on, too. Building both IW and factory seems to be a clear choice.

I knew there was still fun to be had after the middle ages... (I usually start anew at around this point in a game) Construction will begin this evening!

	08-07-2002 22:00									#14
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I voted 'Ironworks' ... but I meant 'Both'. I'm dumb.

Anyway ... go for it! I've only had the chance to build the IW once and it blew me away!

I love it!

	08-07-2002 22:31									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph However, I don't know if the city gains the right to build the IW, if a new source of iron/coal is discovered.

I can't swear on a stack of bibles, but I would assume that you could build the IW in any city that has both coal and iron - whether newly appeared or there of longstanding (of course, being limited to only one in the game).

I assume this because in a very old game several months back, upon the discovery of Steam Power I got the hoped-for pop-up "Our people want to build the Iron Works . . ." -- upon locating all of my newly discovered coal deposits I was surprsied to see that I had my choice of three cities in which to build the IW!

BTW, didn't know that once the flag is hit, even with the depletion of coal or iron the IW is still an available imrpovement -- thanks for the tip.

Back on-topic:

Definitely build both. No question about it. I presume that Paris is your capital which = little waste. If you play up through nuclear plants (or even offshore platforms if you've got a little coast) you might be pumping out 180+ shields or more.

	08-07-2002 22:34									#16
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Both of course.
I love the Iron Works, but it's so rare that I get to build one. Last game I finished, Abydos could feed 20 pop points while producing 226 shields per turn. And that's without any resource mods. Of course I didn't hit that until I added the Nuke plant and manufacturing plant, but even before that, it was churning out 120 or so. That one city built most of my spaceship (and SETI, UN, Cure for Cancer, Hoover, ToE, and the Military Academy). Iron Works is great, and besides, I just had to brag.

	08-07-2002 23:33									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Cypselus Iron Works is great, and besides, I just had to brag.

I'll play this game out, if Paris pumps out 227+ shields per turn, I'll be sure to let you know.

Yes, Catt, it is still my capitol city. There are 3 coal and 1 iron in the radius, iirc. (tho the 3rd might be just outside...)

The only other chance I've had to build one was in a conquered city with runaway food production - something like 2 cattle, 2 wheat, and a fish, the rest grassland + the two hills. I ended up building a stream of settlers instead of improvements. My, how CivII food caravans would have come in handy with that city...

	09-07-2002 04:39									#18
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I love IW so much that I will capture an enemy city with coal / iron if I don;t have one. Hopefully, there will be enough battle to generate 2 GLs, one for the Iron Works (for it's cultural value, of course... HA), and one for the factory.

Imagine the power of a beach head intercontinental attack pumping 50 shields per turn...

	09-07-2002 04:54									#19
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There’s no such thing as too much production.

	10-07-2002 03:43									#20
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Without a doubt build both! If your concerned about pollution there is no need to worry. The French having an industrious strength means workers complete tasks faster, if any pollution is made your workers will clean up the mess double quick.

If drooling just thinkin about what Theseus said..... I can just picture the invasion and the poor sob civilization as it tries to repell it. Bahahaha......

	10-07-2002 07:50									#21
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I only built Iron Works once, in my very first game. It was an AI city that I got by culture flip. It seems the AI knows how to place cities so that it can later build IW. Has anyone ever built IW in a city that wasn't an AI city originally?

	10-07-2002 09:17									#22
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Yes, I have. But notice, AI city placement is valuable as a pointer to future resources.

	10-07-2002 11:30									#23
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quote: Originally posted by playshogi I only built Iron Works once, in my very first game. It was an AI city that I got by culture flip. It seems the AI knows how to place cities so that it can later build IW. Has anyone ever built IW in a city that wasn't an AI city originally?

Many, many times. I actually get to build the Iron Works in a majority of my games (or so it seems). I consciously look for locations that might be an IW city though -- lots of hills / mountains, with a few jungle tiles falling within the 21-tile city radius is an ideal location. I've found that in many of my games (even when I don't get an IW opportunity), there are numerous potential IW city locations.

Catt

	10-07-2002 12:26									#24
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You people don't play it out to the Modern Age often enough, do ya? IW + Factory + Nuclear Plant + Manufacturing Plant.

Ya want shields? Huh? Ya REALLY want shields? Want a GW in 6 turns, an army from the Academy in 4? Howzabout a MA every bloody turn? 150 shields is just the beginning!

EDIT: Too bad I keep getting IW candidates on the ocean... oh well, there's always Offshore Platforms...

	10-07-2002 22:01									#25
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IW and factory are now complete in Paris. Shield production up to 117 per turn, railroads are still being laid (while the workers aren't busy cleaning up pollution, anyway ). Coal Plant has been delayed by Universal Suffrage and now Theory of Evolution.

I'm going to need 6 workers employed full-time in HazMat just to keep the countryside clean...

I'll try to post a screenshot once I get the coal plant built. Or should I wait for a hydro plant, instead? Electronics will be discovered within 10 turns or so.

	10-07-2002 22:53									#26
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Build Hoovers.

	10-07-2002 23:31									#27
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If the IW city has a river in its radius, you can start to prebuild a palace 7 turns before Electronics in it and then switch to Hoover Dam to build it instantly. If not, choose another city with a river and start to prebuild the wonder now.

	11-07-2002 18:51									#28
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Theory of Evolution complete, hello electronics! Sir Ralph, Paris is still my capitol - but I've had a phony palace being built in a nearby city. 4 turns to complete Hoover Dam, and no other civ is building a wonder. So I guess missing the coal plant was no big deal.

Currently, Paris is at ~130 shields, depending on which squares get polluted each turn. This is kinda cool - this is as far as I've ever played (with techs, anyway), but the previous times I had no cities with production possibilities like this. You seasoned modern era gamers are probably less impressed, tho. Thanks for the tips.

	12-07-2002 06:29									#29
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I agree to build both based on what Theseus said. Imagine a city with Iron Works, Factory AND Mfg Plant. OUCH! Just awsome production. You kick out an army every 4 turns! Then its beach time!

	12-07-2002 07:39									#30
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I went a little crazy about the IW tonight... finishing the June MT, England had misplaced a city near the only spot on the map that could build the IW... razed a perfectly good city to reposition, and then won by domination before I could build the damn thing. C'est la guerre, et la vie.