10-07-2002 01:27									#31
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The problem isn't with Islam, per se, but how it is interpreted and practiced. In Europe, Serbian Muslims (aka Bosnians) were quite Westernized and moderate. There was a trend label, ironically enough, secular Islam, which was growing through most of this century, but was ultimately destroyed by the West because it was not sufficiently anti-Communist enough.

However, lest we think this is a problem merely with Islam, let us remember that there are fundimentalist Jewish kooks who would like to make Israel a theocracy. There are people in the US, followers of a nut called Rev. Rashdoon, who want the US to become a Biblical kingdon, where the Bible is law. The Hindu nationalists in India are just as bad as the fundimentalist Moslems.

The problem is Islam, it's religious extremism, which knows no religious boundries.

	10-07-2002 01:30									#32
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same with Turkey and even all the other countries. muslim fundamentalism dosen't exist as state attitude (no, not even in Iraq you monger)(OK, it does in Iran though), so it's all geopolitical nonsernse.

	10-07-2002 01:35									#33
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I agree with che who spoke as if he was in the balkans.

	10-07-2002 01:38									#34
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Che , I know my lunatics very well, thank you.

And I must disagree . Islam is a problem, just like all other religions, and I shall not forget "opium for the masses" as a slogan, it is true. As I've said for around 5 times in this thread, It's the rising tide of Islam , relatively to the decline of christianity, that makes me worry about Islam so much. There is no state in the world that is christian, contrary to what Osama says. There are many states that are muslim.

	10-07-2002 01:44									#35
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oh and what about the Bosnian Mujahedeen?

	10-07-2002 01:47									#36
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Mujahedeen are Afghani

	10-07-2002 01:49									#37
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Islamic fanaticism among the "Bosnians" was a result of the civil war. I think you'll also find that many of those mujahedeen were al-Qaeda types, Arabs and Pakistani volunteers.

The Civil War made everyone nasty and evil and do stuff that you wouldn't have thought them capable of doing. Let's face it, the Yugoslavs were one of the most tolerent societies in modern Europe. It took a lot of propaganda to get people to turn on their neighbors and family. Tudjman, Izobegovic, and Milosevic, brothers in hell.

	10-07-2002 01:50									#38
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Of course there are extreme jackasses everywhere, but my world view remains rotated around myself and the society I live in, and in that regard, fundamentalist Jews or Hindus just don't constitute a problem. The Muslim who shouted "hooker" at girls I know because their faces weren't covered or the Muslims who threw rocks against this year's gay parade constitute a problem because I have to live around them.

Imran, you're fully aware that just because you can get X number of people to agree with a package of ideas, it doesn't mean it can't be highly repressive in nature. Soviet-style communism was the best example, but we can both think of more. Most of these Africans don't posses the same individualism that we do, and there are countless factors at play here apart from the nature of the ideology to which they subscribe. I can't grasp how you can support political ideas of libertarian nature while at the same time be supporting a religion where the church and state are inseperable and prefabricated laws are putting severe restrictions on individual opportunities for development, such as legislation denying 50% of the population the same rights as the rest.

When that's said, do you have any comments on the first stuff I wrote?

	10-07-2002 01:59									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Of course this is a valid point, but as far as I know, the Koran is per definition the inerrant word of God, word for word, whereas the widespread Christian perception of the Bible is different. Sure, the Bible is also supposed to be God's message to mankind, but it's generally agreed upon that it's authored by people, not God himself. This also means you can attribute some parts of the Bible to the society in which it was written, whereas the very word of God per definition would apply equally much today as it did in the days of Muhammad.

THere are Muslims that believe the Koran was divinely inspired but flawed by the nature of the vessel that translated it into the words of man. Or something like that - I'm paraphrasing something an older gent told me a few years ago. Anyway, you can hardly say that all Muslims are fundamentalists. And you can hardly say that it is generally agreed that the Bible is not the literal word of God. The Southern Baptists are literalists. As, I believe, are the Roman Catholics, according to strict church doctrine.

	10-07-2002 02:01									#40
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I LOVED Yugoslavia. I was there as a kid with my father. He was recieving a new vessel that they built there , in Split , Croatia. The year was 1988 or so. They all called themselves Yugoslavs.
ah, memories ...

Also , I saw the Bosnian mujahedeen . they were slavs.

	10-07-2002 02:04									#41
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Dalgetti, that they called themselves Yugoslav doesn't mean enlightenment and peace and prosperity, it means opportunism. It's soemthing that doesn't surprise me. Today they have a strong leader and like the idea of peace, tomorrow, without that leader, with socialism crumbled, they prefer nationalism. It's sad, but it never had a future if you ask me. Not on the Balkans anyway. And this is not racism, it's realism.

	10-07-2002 02:08									#42
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quote: I can't grasp how you can support political ideas of libertarian nature while at the same time be supporting a religion where the church and state are inseperable and prefabricated laws are putting severe restrictions on individual opportunities for development, such as legislation denying 50% of the population the same rights as the rest.

a) I don't support the religion

and

b) Brainwashing the contrary, not every one of the 1.2 billion Muslims in the world believe in no seperation of Church and State and keeping down of women. As there are different interpretations of the Bible there are of the Koran. Religious beliefs can and are totally seperate from political beliefs. See Turkey's leaders, who are Muslim in religion, but secular in politics.

quote: When that's said, do you have any comments on the first stuff I wrote?

Nope

	10-07-2002 02:15									#43
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Echinda,

OK, maybe not generally accepted. My viewpoint was slightly disturbed by the fact that I live in a country where 80% are members of a Protestant Christian church, but I've only met ten people or so, ever, who thought the Bible was to be taken absolutely literal. The point remains that the symbolic, more abstract interpretation comes more natural to Christians than Muslims.

And no, don't get me wrong - far from all Muslims are fundamentalists, but for the above mentioned reasons, I reckon there's a need for concern. As for the "flawed by the nature of the vessel" thing, I figure there could be people believing that - however, the vessel in question was an archangel, and I wouldn't expect that many Muslims to accept the statement the archangel would screw up. The Koran is the exact word of God and God's language is Arabic - the Koran says so, whereas the Bible doesn't - and that's the reason Muslims don't like using the term "translation" when it comes to translating God's word into other languages, whereas Christians don't have similar objections.

Imran,

I remember your origins are Pakistani and you were a Muslim back in the old days - I take your comment as an indicator you've changed your faith since then?

Religious beliefs can and are totally seperate from political beliefs.

They can and they should be. I'm simply pointing out that when it comes to religious loonies, I'd much rather have Christians than Muslims, because whether you admit it or not, the Koran preaches politics to a large degree whereas Jesus didn't.

	10-07-2002 02:19									#44
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well , if they don't believe in the keeping down of women , they're not real believing muslims , heh ?

Trying to veil (no pun intended) islam as a philosophy , without any of it's other repricussions on society is wrong and misleading . We should analize religions for the better and worse . Otherwise , I'd be going around praising Confucianism as the way of life for everyone.

	10-07-2002 02:21									#45
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stop blahing around... do they keep women down in Turkey?

	10-07-2002 02:22									#46
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young women in military regime tukey have to go through virtginity test to reamin in school

so dont tell me about turkey

i have turkish friends


the husband of onbe of my best freinds is turkish

so please

	10-07-2002 02:25									#47
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I am sure it would get much better if the Islamists went to power . Remember , the lesser of two evils.

	10-07-2002 02:25									#48
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You have Turkish friends? Last time I checked you hate them.

Besides, you should better keep your body hair down before you talk about others keeping their women down.

	10-07-2002 02:25									#49
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quote: I remember your origins are Pakistani and you were a Muslim back in the old days - I take your comment as an indicator you've changed your faith since then?

You've been away for a while haven't you?

quote: They can and they should be. I'm simply pointing out that when it comes to religious loonies, I'd much rather have Christians than Muslims, because whether you admit it or not, the Koran preaches politics to a large degree whereas Jesus didn't.

Maybe so, but also remember where Islam is time-wise. It is around 1400 years of the religion. Where was Christianity then? Wasn't the state controlled by the religion. Weren't Popes the most powerful people in Europe, which could tell Kings what to do? Weren't women 2nd class citizens?

Give Islam some time. It is active and growing, which means you have fanatics.

quote: well , if they don't believe in the keeping down of women , they're not real believing muslims , heh ?

Not so. Muhammed himself said that men should have their wives be their equals. He preached a LOT against the lowering of Arab women. Unfortunetly a religon can't totally uproot centuries of a certain practice (ie, making women less then men). If you look at Muslims in other areas, like, say... Pakistan. Women don't have to be covered from head to toe. Most of them wear head scarves, but that is because it is so bleeding hot there!! Hell, they even elected a woman Prime Minister!

	10-07-2002 02:26									#50
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ecthelinaki you can fook off

dal, i lready said that military regime is better than the islamists for the people turkey

how many times do i have to repeat it?


that said dont think their culture is not islamist and very oppresive

	10-07-2002 02:26									#51
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why are Islamists lesser of two evils? you mean in Turkey? that's possible, but why are they better than military leaders?

	10-07-2002 02:28									#52
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BTW, they do elections in Turkey

	10-07-2002 02:31									#53
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well, if they come out wrong, they do them again, and again, until they come out right, Ecthelion.


Imran : This time scale is real weird. In your theory , there is some kind of a fixed time , an evolutionary time table of the devolopement of religion. If so , do you mean that by 2500 , we'll have an open muslim society?

	10-07-2002 02:31									#54
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a nazi like yourself shouldnt care ecthelinaki

	10-07-2002 02:36									#55
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Dal: Yes, by 2500, I think we will have an open Muslim society. It is kind of interesting, there does seem to be an evolutionary scale of religions. A bright shining, and then lots of debate and discussion and openness, followed by repression and one voice... which leads to disenchantment and breaking off and more secularism. It is an interesting pattern, and it is being played out in Islam as well.

	10-07-2002 02:36									#56
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people , let's keep the level ... well , not too low.

	10-07-2002 02:38									#57
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Dal: It's like History repeating itself, which is very often does. I see the same for Islam. Interestingly though, there is a Western undercurrent, which is trying to make the change come faster. It should be interesting to see what gains it makes.

	10-07-2002 02:39									#58
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Monk, just because the Qu'ran is the literal word of god does not mean that the meaning isn't interpreted differently by different people. You seem to be assuming that:
a) it's easy to understand,
b) all Muslims understand it,
c) all Muslims interpret it the same way,
d) that Islam should be exempt from nutjobs because its holy book is supposed to be the words of god. The 10 Commandments are also supposed to be the words of god, and yet many Christians disobey at least one of them.

	10-07-2002 02:39									#59
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Imran , your theory is not realistic. The enviroments, and the technological evolution stages are rather different, to say the least. I clearly see the secularisation in Europe a part of the exploration of the new world, and the printing press. Your analisys doesn't take all those endless criteria into account.

	10-07-2002 02:42									#60
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Dal, your level is not high enough for me... could you.. yeah... maybe a little more... yeah, yeah... yes, that's it.

Thanks