10-07-2002 02:47									#61
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thanks for the valuable input .

	10-07-2002 02:51									#62
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How come (nearly?) only poor and uneducated people convert to islam?

I predict a divided world, with a working "slave"-class consisting of mainly moslems and a ruling class of western/non-moslem asiatic people.

	10-07-2002 02:53									#63
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I aim to please, Dal. Now why are you using a pic of Boris Y as an avatar icon?

Are you also fat and constantly drunk?

	10-07-2002 02:56									#64
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wait a sec... .yes !

	10-07-2002 02:57									#65
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quote: Imran , your theory is not realistic. The enviroments, and the technological evolution stages are rather different, to say the least. I clearly see the secularisation in Europe a part of the exploration of the new world, and the printing press. Your analisys doesn't take all those endless criteria into account.

It doesn't have to take that into account. The secularisation of Europe would have happened even with out the exploration of the New World and in fact was happening before it. Check out the Hussite revolts. Luther's ideals weren't based on discoveries though the printing press did help to get his ideas out to many people. The same basic pattern fits. I see this same pattern for Islam, of openness at the beginning, to totalitarian thinking in the middle (ie, now), to secularism and openness in the end.

The Church didn't fall because of the printing press and discoveries in the New World. The Church fell because it was alienating the people with its old rules and ideas. Because of its corruptness and idiocy, and many Muslims are also becoming disenchanted with radicals. The only problem is the West is stoking up these fires by seeming making Islam the enemy, allowing the fundamentals to rally around the religion. But soon, it too will become fringed.

	10-07-2002 02:58									#66
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Al'Kimiya: that will never happen . A war between US+Russia and a few Islamic countries is possible. Remember , we're playing with nukes here.

	10-07-2002 03:00									#67
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when exactly was the church enlighted ?

	10-07-2002 03:03									#68
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When Thomas Aquinus gave it a shot in the arm. However, it wasn't enlightened during the age of Luther, the undoing of it.

	10-07-2002 03:03									#69
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lol, it never was

	10-07-2002 03:05									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti Al'Kimiya: that will never happen . A war between US+Russia and a few Islamic countries is possible. Remember , we're playing with nukes here.

I wasn't talking about war. I meant large parts of the third world will become moslem, meaning more moslem refugees to western countries, meaning larger percent moslem populations in these countries. The integration policies in the west doesn't work very well, thus the refugee imigrants become lower "class" and if they get any jobs it probably won't be very good jobs...

Isn't this the situation in Israel today. Arabs from the poor territories having poorly paid jobs in Israel proper. Well.. at least up until a few weeks ago. This situation could spread to the entire west.

Edit - moslem refugees that is..

	10-07-2002 03:16									#71
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Yes! And all the Asians who came to Britain ended up in the lower classes. Apart from all the doctors, and succesful businessmen...

	10-07-2002 03:39									#72
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quote: Originally posted by JohnIII Yes! And all the Asians who came to Britain ended up in the lower classes. Apart from all the doctors, and succesful businessmen...

But the non-moslem Asians haven't islamic traditions "preventing" them from becoming successful. So in the not so distant future, the lower classes will be mostly moslem. Perhaps even poor Asians converting in the dark alleys of London.

Like say the caste-less hindus converting to Islam in India. "At least it's better than this..."

	10-07-2002 03:51									#73
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Muhammed Al Fayed is hardly unsuccessful now, is he?

From a Datamonitor report last year: 'Britain may have well over 5000 Muslim millionaires with liquid assets of more than £3.6bn. Their wealth will make them among the most sought after customers by Britain's financial services sector…the market for Islamic* finance in the UK is set to grow hugely.'
* According to the Sharia?

It's funny, because if you were talking about Jews that way, you'd have about fifty responses calling you a Jew-hater and an anti-semite, quite rightly.

	10-07-2002 04:07									#74
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quote: Originally posted by JohnIII Muhammed Al Fayed is hardly unsuccessful now, is he?

Well, has he converted to islam lately?
The point is that the poor and uneducated convert, and they would most likely remain poor and uneducated.

quote: It's funny, because if you were talking about Jews that way, you'd have about fifty responses calling you a Jew-hater and an anti-semite, quite rightly.

Well jews are famous for their financial skills, aren't they?

	10-07-2002 04:40									#75
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quote: lol, it never was

Actually during the time of Aquinas and before that Ambrose, Church leaders were some of the most enlightened people out there. Check out Erasmus' writing.

	10-07-2002 06:51									#76
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The poor and uneducated also make up the bulk of Christian fundies, probably Hindu fundies too.

	10-07-2002 08:14									#77
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Perhaps Islam will change in time Imran, we will wait in see. But I don't think you can judge what Islam will do based on how things went for Christianity. There have been different historical factors, as well as differences in the religion itself. Hinduism, for instance, took much longer to become modernized- by the time the British came the sati was still being practiced. What is disturbing is that now in the Islamic world the trend is towards more fundamentalism. It seems as though moslems are getting angrier at the often secular dictatorships that rule over them, and then much of the young nowadays are becoming more radical then ever.

	10-07-2002 12:03									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Religious bigotry? In the United States?! I'm shocked, shocked I tell you!

"Here are your winnings sir."

	10-07-2002 13:45									#79
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Obviously we can't just paint a billion people with the same brush we use for Bin Laden and his ilk. Not only is it bigoted to do so, it is inaccurate. That said I am not nearly as upbeat as either Imran or the author of this piece. As for Imran's theory of religious history, even if it is correct it is of little relevance to us that in a few hundred years Islam will start to mellow out. Right now there are more than enough fanatics to be a real problem for a sizable chunk of the globe.

For whatever reason the areas where Islam holds sway tend to not only be the areas that are amongst the most backward on the planet, they also seem to be resistent to what we in the west call progress. Political and economic stagnation both seem to strengthen religious institutions, and in many areas of the Islamic world these religious institutions tend to be reactionary, which feeds back into political and economic stagnation. While this does vary regionally to some extent (ie some areas of the Islamic world have a long and successful political and / or economic tradition), the performance of Islam as a whole seems to suggest that the religion itself lends itself to this painful feeback loop more than most others. I think that Monk hits on some good points in this regard. For instance the Islamic world tends to be pretty wealthy in oil, which should provide a very welcome helping hand to their economies by providing them with a secure source of capital to develop internal markets. Yet the performance of the Arab oil states has been pitiful, with oil revenue used to prop up outmoded forms of government rather than developing new economic activities with which to diversify their economies. Indonesia's performance has not been much better even though it's regional variation and cultural history should have given it a leg up on the Arabs in this regard.

While on the whole the rest of the world is getting wealthier and more free, the opposite is true of the Islamic world. This troubling tendency is coupled with another one, which is the population growth of the Islamic world, which accounts for the vast majority of the growth of the religion, whatever fairly minor gains are made in Africa notwithstanding. I'm afraid that things are going to continue to get worse before they get better, not because I am an expert on Islam, but mainly because I have only observed a continuing decline in the status of Muslims throughout my life. As troubled as Africa is, I honestly have more hope for that region than I do for the Islamic world because I do see some progress in Africa over time. Eventually the secular governments which we in the west have been happy to have holding back the tide of the more radical elements in Islamic society are going to fall. This will be a dangerous time, but hopefully one of opportunity as well. I only hope that Islamicist governance will prove the limitations of that approach without proving to be as despotic and stubborn as the current secular and Islamicist regimes are.

	10-07-2002 14:30									#80
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"I only hope that Islamicist governance will prove the limitations of that approach"

Well Iran has already done that, has it not....

	10-07-2002 14:46									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "I only hope that Islamicist governance will prove the limitations of that approach" Well Iran has already done that, has it not....

True, though many Muslim countries would rightly look up to the government of Iran as something to aspire to. That's a bit scary, but admit that I do admire the Iranians for adhering to the rule of law to the extent that they do. The problem in Iran is the constitution.

	10-07-2002 14:48									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion I'm already sorry, but the thread title made me think of something funny: I've never been in Islam before. Have you?

Try Kreutzberg, Ossie.

	10-07-2002 17:12									#83
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Silly Imran... just because a bunch of religious bigots in the US are making this claim doesn't mean they are wrong.

Bigotry is part of human nature, and part of all religions. It just so happens that bigotry in Islam is socially acceptable. The whole culture of Islam is intolerant of freedom and equality.

And don't go playing the Crusades card... the Crusades were to reclaim the Holy Land from the Muslim hordes that conquered the Mid-East and pushed as far into France via North Africa.

In a perfect world, we can all coexist. But the social cultures of the Mid-East are in direct clash of the Western idealogies... freedom, equality, tolerance, etc. Islam can exist in the West... the West cannot exist in the Islamic world. Personally, I choose freedom. I'm all for another modern day crusade to liberate the Mid-East and the Islamic world.