10-07-2002 17:17									#1
	Horrible OCC experience Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

OK, here's teh story:
I was playing this OCC game at Emperor level and everything was proceeding smoothly. I launched my space ship first and was already excited at this new milestone in my CIV history. Knowing that an OCC game at Diety level would be next really made me shaking of pure excitment!
Knowing that I was in control of the UN and had no enemies, I started building nice stuff for my people like an SDI defense and a coastal fortress when suddenly I noticed enemy troops approaching.
All right, I tought, no big deal, they just want to look at the glorious multiple-million-pop Stibytown.
WRONG, they attacked. How could this happen, I was in control of the UN so I tought this was not possible. However, 'twas definetely happening. The enemy bombers had no trouble defeating my musketeers end left-over freights. A few rush-bought mech infs didn't do the trick either, as I was soon overrun by armors.
The most glorious city of the game destroyed, my spaceship destroyed (I never figured out how they did that, I mean they'd been away for a good couple of years already) and I suffered a humiliating loss.

My lesson for today: Never trust your friends, so it's better to build multiple mech infs than to sit back and relax!

	10-07-2002 18:41									#2
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Stealth Fighters do it for me ,,, straight after the launch!

SG[1]

	10-07-2002 18:44									#3
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One question, btw. When you control the UN, other nations aren't allowed to sneak attack you, right?

	10-07-2002 19:32									#4
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obviously are

	10-07-2002 19:36									#5
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I don't have the manual here, but what benefits does the UN give you then???

I thought I found some sort of bug....

	10-07-2002 19:37									#6
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IIRC they must accept a cease fire - but for how long?

SG[1]

	10-07-2002 19:47									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits IIRC they must accept a cease fire - but for how long? SG[1]

For one turn. I don't think that the AI civ can sneak attack you the same turn, if they accept the ceasefire during their turns.

However, if the ceasefire is granted during your turn, they can sneak attack you the next time they move... which is why I try to never, ever, make peace during my turn.

STYOM

	10-07-2002 19:53									#8
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I feel terribly stupid. Now I've got to start all over again with an OCC emperor game. But that isn't really bad!
However, winning on that level is still quite a challenge, IMHO.

	10-07-2002 20:00									#9
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On further reflection... how did you manage to get the UN in a OCC?

I don't OCC much, but I would think the idea is to use alliances and gifts to keep the peace before the space race starts - and then after you launch, rush as many defensive units as you can.

The 600 shields of the UN might have been better used elsewhere, maybe? Then again, my OCCs never go as planned, either.

STYOM

	10-07-2002 20:00									#10
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... don't forget to defend heavily in the latest turns

	10-07-2002 20:10									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man On further reflection... how did you manage to get the UN in a OCC? STYOM

There is this period when all you can build is freights (or defensive units, but who needs those?). i don't recall exactly how, but I probably had plenty of freights already and had only communism as a research option.
Come to think of it, I guess I was able to build the UN the very next turn after I launched my SS. Hmmm, not sure...

	10-07-2002 21:07									#12
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I have yet to try OCC, I need to get a little better but boy does it sound challenging!

	10-07-2002 21:12									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man The 600 shields of the UN might have been better used elsewhere, maybe? Then again, my OCCs never go as planned, either.

A fleet of stealth fighters, perhaps?

	10-07-2002 22:36									#14
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i usually don't even get stealth in an OCC game... then again i dont' play OCC too often

	10-07-2002 22:42									#15
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With UN, other civs offer cease fire and even peace during diplomatic talks,
but : they may use sneak attacks, and at this moment, they don't accept diplomatic meeting : no time to loss in discussions... It's a difficult situation because you have to survive during 2 or 3 turns before a possibility of opening a negociation screen !
I noticed that once the spatial ship is launched, other nearby civs became often hostile.
The OCC practice is taking immediate defensive measures as citywalls (if not yet), costal defense (if shore city), completing strong defense units as mechInf or armor (to counterattack), placed in fortress on key tiles (hills or isthmus...), a vet spy for counterespionnage, and stealth fighters to maintain ennemies at a good distance...(with 80 shield, one fighter/turn !)
This plan needs to break down science research (after derobade) and to maximize monney for rushbuying.
I generally can survive the years of space flight.

	11-07-2002 10:34									#16
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I've tried OCC very often (more than 20 times) and I managed to reach AC 2 times. I often had the same problems as Dr. Stiby.
The UN helps you to make peace with an AI civ, but only for one turn . Don't ask an ally for a tech or some gift when Apollo has been built: Maybe they declare war at you immediately without retreating their troops which swarm around your city like moths around a candlelight.
I often have some camels/freights left after the launch of my space ship, so I build Manhattan in one turn and a nuclear rocket the next. Then I build some paratroopers and some stealth fighters. A couple of spies had already been built.
I like a chain of mountains between me and the AI civs, and I build some fortresses there. So vet armors and vet mech infs can resist even the attack of howitzers.
Sometimes I build hills only for fortress use on fields next to the city limits. Or I reforest the grassland and plains between my city and AI cities.

	11-07-2002 11:18									#17
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Surely don't build The Project - you have only one city they have many! At least not until after SDI

I have never had any problems post launch - they have occasionally mugged me prior to launch - but with my city producing over 80 shields per turn once the SS is away I produce a Stealth a turn and interdict my city radius

SG[1]

	11-07-2002 13:09									#18
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SDI amd SAM are a must have! I always build them! With a production > 80 shields it is no problem to build it in 3 (SDI) or 2 (SAM) turns.
I won't give the nuclear technologies to the AI. But if they develop them or steal them ...
By the way, is it useful to build Leo's in an OCC game? (Nice to have a NONE engineer).
Having Leo's I bribe AI settler to get NONE engineers, too. I had games with three NONE engineers!
In my games I asked my allies (3 to 5) for a gift every 5-7 turns and got 300-1000 gold when I did that. Took that money to rush build wonders or city improvements.
Will log that next OCC try and report that to this forum.

	12-07-2002 00:11									#19
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I know that if another civilization has a "vendetta" against you, the UN won't necessarily save your arse from their fury. I've had that happen more than once.

Gatekeeper

	12-07-2002 03:33									#20
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I have often been mopped up by the AI after space launch. Since I know it will happen, if the other civs are not backwards by that time (it does happen sometimes that they have nothing better than cavalry), I build city walls, SAM and SDI instead of a caravan. Rush built in one turn preferably (rush build temple or barracks from zilch and switch or disband a freight or other leftover) before I launch. Thus when I am ready to lauch I build one unit per turn and ATTACK if they are not peaceful or try to build their own spaceship. Bombing the AI cities within range is particularly efficient. I may even leave a bomber on top of a railroad just to block the enemy till the next bomber can come in.
I built UN a few times in OCC, when I saw a big aggressive neighbour. It is a bit of a waste of time though, not because of the cost, but because Communism is totally useless for space flight and thus slows down research maybe 2 or 3 turns if you get it late, but maybe much more if you get it early (its own cost + the effect of increasing subsequent beakers costs).
As for Leo, I can't see how you could spare the time for it. It is obsolete after automobile and I usually beeline for it as superhighways are a must.

	12-07-2002 04:38									#21
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In OCC you shouldn't have time to build anything but the essentials: Col, Cope's, Shake's, Newton's, Darwin, Apollo. If you have more than 1 or 2 Freight left over after launch you dawdled around for that many turns in the late game.

I suppose you are only trying to beat the AI, not the calendar. In that case stop tech trading in the modern era. You'll still outpace them in research and may easily manage to build a respectable defense force. A half-dozen Mech, a couple Spies and Stealths is all you need if you stay Dem so they can't be bribed.

	12-07-2002 11:24									#22
	@Straybow Tired of ads?

I disagree. I often have the time + the money + the possibilty to build "unnecessary" WoW. I like Leo's (just for upgrading my units - I normally have up to 10 NONE-Units, found by my exploring units). My allies support me with enough money (I rush build nearly all city improvements an wonders).
Sometimes you only can build food freights - or a WoW.
Cause my city has a high production (I always search for city sites with at least one production special - I have had cities with a production of 47 shields before industrialization), I can afford that. I often have a freight / caravan surplus.
But I can't afford to build too much defenders. I'll do that after the launch of my space ship. As you know you need a 80+production to build structures in one turn.
I agree that's no use to build the Pyramids or Magellan's or Adam Smith's or something like that. But I think in OCC games the UN is important, and I'll built it if possible.
Otherwise the civ that has build the UN could declare war at you, attack you and force you to keep peace when it's your turn to move.
And think of the other possibilties you have with the UN:
You always know what the AI civs are researching, you always know where they are producingwhat . So you can sabotage spaceship components ...

	12-07-2002 11:32									#23
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Just try some of the comparison Games in the back of the Paulicy...
To be competitive in these you will find that you have to be extremely 'lean and mean' - there is no time for luxuries - like SDI ...

SG[1]

	12-07-2002 12:58									#24
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About WoWs, when I play OCC, as everybody, I build the essentials (cf. Straybow list), but I often built Leo's if I have NON-units, to update them as long as possible against neighbors or barbs. Up to SS launching, riflemen, spies, cavalry and engineers are enough. I build stronger units and fighters (one by turn) once the SS launched.
If other civs are early aggressive and do not allow cleaning pollution by un defended engineers, it may be usefull to build too mass transit and even antipollution center so the engineers have not to be exposed.

Last edited by JCP on 12-07-2002 at 13:36

	12-07-2002 13:09									#25
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I think Leo is utterly useless in OCC IMO. What do you use NON units for? Tip huts and find gold? You don't need them upgraded. A diplo is as efficient for that job and can bribe barbarians to give you additional updated NON units. As for defenders, you don't fear barbarians, so why bother? The only problem is the AI in the late era, when you have automobile anyway so Leo is useless. I would take UN against Leo with no problem. Maintaining alliances or even friendship in the modern era is usually hard enough for me, so UN can help at times. Still, when I have to build it it is a sure sign that I will be late on AC or not there at all.
As far as comparison games go, does anyone know how to translate a .sav into ToT format? I always play OCC on random maps, and two maps in three are unsuitable. Playing a premade map I don't like much because I would know where everyone is, and early contact with other civs is crucial so it'd be too easy.

	12-07-2002 13:24									#26
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@LDiCesare
Isn't there a tool called CivConverter? You can find it int the archive or download section.

	12-07-2002 13:26									#27
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I like those NONE-Units. I normally fortify them on the city limits. I'll fortify some spies, too, so that no AI diplo/spy can intrude my territory!

	01-08-2003 15:40									#28
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This is a mighty bump I'm afraid, but I love OCCing.
I know that most people here have faded away in favour of ELGs, but I'm sure that there is still sufficient OCC interest.
STYOM, have you done any better than since you wrote the post here?

I would like to propose that instead of getting Leo's, if you have any spare midgame shields that you build KRC. The advantages of having what is basically a factory that early in the game are immense and although it will become obsolete quite early, think of all the caravans you will have made by then! The wisdom of building this will of course depend upon your starting terrain as it's going to be worthless if you've only got a few grassland shields, but then I reckon you'd be in trouble anyway. I have taken to building KRC rather than Darwin's, because I don't see that two techs are really worth all of the camels you pile in. If I've got enough then maybe I'll be tempted to get both, but if your trade routes are healthy enough then the science won't take too much longer doing things the traditional way.

	01-08-2003 18:07									#29
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KRC was tried by the pioneers of OCC and soon discarded. The active window for the wonder is far too short. In addition you may be faced with pollution which is a real pain to clear up with a settler.

Forget KRC and add another two caravans to build Darwin's which will speed the progress to Corporation - the essential advance to restore trade returns after Railroad.

----------------------

SG(2)

	01-08-2003 18:39									#30
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I've only tried OCC a couple times. Found it very frustrating to find a suitable site on random maps.
Hacking together a sweet city site just doesn't feel authentic...

The 2 serious attempts I made (probably almost a year ago) were both failures. But perhaps I've learned enough to give it another go...