11-07-2002 13:47									#1
	Refugees Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Something that I would like to see added to Civ 3 in either PTW or some future Xpack is the concept of refugees.

Currently, I find it kind of unrealistic that bombers, artillery, ships etc. are capable of killing hundreds of thousands of people when they bombard. Attacking civilian populations can kill a lot of people, but not as many as it does in the game. With my idea, they would instead become refugees (as has happened historically, look at places like Kosovo).

The refugees would work like this.

1)They would be a new unit, much like a worker, except they would have their own 'AI' and would have a movement of 2, able to use anyone's roads but no-ones railroads (to stop them from being teleported around instantaneously).

2) They would be created if civilians were killed during bombardment, if a city was razed (in which case, part of the population would die, part would be enslaved, and the rest would become refugees), or if citizens were expelled from a city (see below).

3) Once the refugees were created, their first priority would be to get away from the enemy as fast as possible. To represent this, they would attempt to make sure that there would be no enemies that they knew of within one turn's travel of them.

4) As long as they were safe from enemy troops, their objective should be to find a city. They should go a city which fulfills the following conditions:

i) It is closer than any other city which fulfills these conditions.

ii) The addition of the refugees will not cause the city to starve.

iii) the addition of the refugees will not cause the city to go into disorder.

iv) There are no enemy troops nearby -OR- the city belongs to someone not at war with the enemy.

5) Once the refugees arrived at a city, they would automatically join it and become essentially foreign labourers, however they would keep a 'refugee' flag, meaning that they would not be assimilated, would not become specialists, and would have a 75% chance of returning to their parent Civ once the war was over. Any refugees that choose to remain would lose the flag.

6) Rule no. 6 does not apply if the Civ expelled the refugees itself.

7) Any action by anyone against refugees from a civ would generally have the result of pissing them off.

Expulsion

This is essentially an ancillary to the reugee idea. It would add a new action to military units, 'expel citizen'. This would work simply by giving the command and picking the citizen to expel. The expelled citizen would then become a refugee. Resisting citizens would be immune to expulsion. Each unit would only be allowed to expel one citizen per turn, and expelling citizens from another civ would tend to piss them off, as well as hurting your reputation.

Any comments/suggestions/further ideas?

	11-07-2002 17:22									#2
	Tired of ads?

Instead of adding them to a city, shouldn't they create a refugee camp and drain the hosting civ's resources? That would give the host civ incentive to seek an end to the conflict in the refugees' homeland. We'd need new diplomacy options (such as "Stop your war against XXXX") and some sort of right of return agreement when the refugees' home city is taken by a foreign power. And of course (since you are from Australia) a civ should be able to close their borders to refugees, protecting themselves from the financial drain but incurring the wrath of other civs in so doing.

	11-07-2002 19:01									#3
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Interesting concept, but I think the refugees should stay permanantly.

	12-07-2002 07:05									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Interesting concept, but I think the refugees should stay permanantly.

Yes, that might be a better idea, although historically most refugees have returned when they can.

quote: Instead of adding them to a city, shouldn't they create a refugee camp and drain the hosting civ's resources? That would give the host civ incentive to seek an end to the conflict in the refugees' homeland. We'd need new diplomacy options (such as "Stop your war against XXXX") and some sort of right of return agreement when the refugees' home city is taken by a foreign power. And of course (since you are from Australia) a civ should be able to close their borders to refugees, protecting themselves from the financial drain but incurring the wrath of other civs in so doing.

Well, 'closing your borders' could be represented simply byexpelling any refugees you don't want. As for the refugee camp idea and the extra diplomacy options, they are also good ideas. You could say that the refugees in the camp count as workers that don't work, meaning that you have to pay to support them.

	12-07-2002 20:38									#5
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I don't know about this one. I think it is a good idea, in general, but I am afraid that you can make some people very angry.

This also opens the black hole of internment camps, concentration camps, and genocide. I think Firaxis did a good job in trying to avoid this issue.

This might be implemented, though, in a personal mod. First, make two civs into constant allies, using an editor. Then, create a trigger that creates refugee units of civ type 1 when a city of civ type 2 is razed. Then, if the human plays as the second civ (with its miliatry units), civ type 1 will represent the refugess. This may have to be coupled with guerrillas and paramilitaries in order to make the concept more lifelike- if you expel people, not all of them leave happily, or peacefully...

This one is a Pandora's box

	13-07-2002 14:21									#6
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I personallu love all of the ideas put forward here!!
Have a few other suggestions to add, though:

1) Initially, when a refugee unit settles in a square, it should make the contents of that square "invisible" and, therefore, unavailable to the city or civ (eg bonus, luxury or strategic resources, terrain features etc!) This would represent the "financial drain" which Stuie mentioned!!
2) After X turns, if the unit has not been expelled, or gone back to rejoin it's original Civ, then it should pull up stumps and move into the nearest city that fits the criteria mentioned by General Tacitus. They should then act, in all respects, like a foreign national!
3) I agree with General Tacitus that you should be able to expel refugees a al diplomats and spies in Civ2! Would cause general loss of reputation, as well as particularly angering the civ to which they belong. Expulsion should be a specific unit option, meaning that you should be able to attack them normally!! (This would be a HIDEOUS act, on an atrocity scale akin to razing a city!)
On a final note, as another Australian, I can assure you that some of us are utterly sickened and appalled by the way our government is keeping refugees out of Australia! But enough politics! Great Idea General.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	13-07-2002 16:14									#7
	Put an end to popups!

the overal idea sounds good.

	13-07-2002 16:22									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: I don't know about this one. I think it is a good idea, in general, but I am afraid that you can make some people very angry. This also opens the black hole of internment camps, concentration camps, and genocide. I think Firaxis did a good job in trying to avoid this issue.

Just a couple of points in reply:

1) Re: genocide, as Zouave is fond of pointing out Razing IS genocide, on a greater or lesser scale, depending on how much it is used.

2) On the internment/concentration camp issue, I'm not sure this has much relevance to refugees, at least in the game. People who don't want the refugees would kick them out, rather than lock them up as Howard had done.

EDIT: Corrected spelling of refugee.