11-07-2002 23:55									#1
	Best builder civs discussion Got spare money?

I am new to this forum, though I am a bit of a frequent on the general and PTW forums however. This forum seemed like it was filled with a bunch of intelligent and friendly characters, so i figured I would get in on the action.

I have heard much in-depth discussion analyzing every last conceivable detail over which civ is the best for warmongering. But which civs do you think best suits the pinko peacenik playing style?

I think the obvious choice would be Egypt, their UU is not nescarrily geared toward a peaceful playing style, but you can't argue with a civ that combines the two best civs in the game for peaceniking. Fast workers leads to a great infastructure, which has been rightfully called the key to Civ III. Cheap temples allow for a powerful culture, and a happy population.

Another obviously great civ for peaceniking is Bablyon. The combination of Sci/Rel is ideal for players looking to establish an influential culture. Their UU the bowmen, though much maligned in some circles, is actually very useful to the potential peaceniker. It is fairly cheap, and has a solid offense and defense. So if the barbaric Germans send an archer rush down your throat, your bowmen can ably defend on the opponents turn, and launch a future counter-offensives knocking out low defense units on your turn. It provides a great one-two punch that can help protect your peacenik civilizations from falling to barbarism.

Greece is another great peaceniker, obviously for it's hoplite unit, which I usually don't upgrade until nationalism (unless a specific circumstance arises where I *NEED* musketmen). Scientific also s always a welcomed trait for the peaceniker, and say what you will about how bad commercial is, but it obviously helps a peaceful civ much more than a barbaric one.

I think a not so obvious choice though would be India. Aside from getting to play as the paragon of peace, the Mahatma. India brings a lot of interesting aspects to the table. It is true that they to start next to Japan and China, who are a bunch of meanies, they get religious, which is always very welcomed. And yes, they also have Commercial, but hopefully Soren's fixes will make it a much more valuable part of the peacenik strategy. One of the greatest things about India however, is it's UU, which I think may actually be one of the most underlooked units for the peaceful player. It is a powerful unit, that is useful for quite a while. And best of all, it doesn't require massive expansion in order to insure that you have all the required resources to build it. Moreover, when the Barbarian invasion trys to deny you your resources, you will still be able to build this unit, and launch dedicated counter-offensives that can eventually drive the barbarian out, and perhaps even allowl you to gain the offensive. In one game I was playing, I faced a massive invasion from the barbaric peoples of Persia. Things looked gloomy for my beloved mother India when some invading pikemen denied my only Iron resource which was close to the border. However buiiding a couple War Elephants and moving them to some of my cities first in line of the Persian attack allowed me to launch brief counteroffensives to wittle down their attackers, which may have saved my cities. Eventually the tide turned, and I actually set my War Elephants loose on a couple of Persian cities before Xerxes finally sued for peace and I was able to secure a favorable peace.

I'm sure my ideas seem novice in nature compared to the great minds of this board, so feel free to set me straight on some quality peace-niking strategies.

	12-07-2002 00:32									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Welcome to the strategy forum, Monkspider.

Though it's a little bit old, I offer up my thread on this very topic (man, I had to do some digging to find it):

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=44875

-Arrian

	12-07-2002 00:45									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Try this:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=40805

	12-07-2002 01:07									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Yeesh. I took a look at my first post in that thread, Blitzer... and WOW has my playstyle changed.

I changed my favorite builder civ too (to Egypt from Babylon). Heh.

-Arrian

	12-07-2002 01:49									#5
	Support Apolyton

Religious is a key attribute, to be sure - dirt cheap temples and cathedrals can't be beat. My games as India have gone very well. The elephant is a dandy unit, imho - a resource free bully, basically.

I have been most successful with France, actually. I've yet to play as Babylon or Greece, and only once as Egypt. Considering how well I do with industrious, I'll have a go with Egypt again. I think I quit that game cuz I was too far ahead (score) - I began another game on the next higher level.

	12-07-2002 02:17									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It depends also on the level you play. On lower levels I played a lot with the Babylonians and all went well. But when I worked my way up to Emperor and Deity, I just needed the Industrious trait to keep up with the other civs at the beginning of the game. So I learned to control these levels using Egypt as my favourite civ. I am able to handle Emperor level with other Civs by now but on Deity I generally still play with Egypt.

	12-07-2002 02:27									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I like industrious as the builder/peacenik trait (of course, I also like industrious as a warmonger trait ) -- the rapidly laid out road network allows for a good, peaceful land grab and the rapid tile improvement ability gives a great headstart on . . . well . . . building.

I'd be curious on others thoughts between industrious / religious (Egypt) and industrious / scientific (Persia). I've been playing Monarch and Emperor games, and citizen contentedness / happiness is such a key factor in success, that, IMHO, the religious trait has a big advantage. But I'm wondering if cheap libraries and universities might be a more powerful peace-nik combination (even with the Immortals!) on lower difficulty levels or in those (rare and lucky) circumstances where multiple different luxuries are readily available. Science improvements provide more culture and help in the tech race (trading!).

maybe I'll play a Monarch game as Persia and play a pure peace-nik style -- adequate defense acceptable, no offensive wars, period.

Catt

EDIT: I spend a few minutes on my post and Franses beats me to the punch with a partial answer! Franses - have you played Persia?

	12-07-2002 02:39									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

I also have normally been playing Egypt, but am currently in a Babs game. Have been playing peacefull with a culture win goal in mind. I'm on a rather large continent surrounded on 3 sides, by the Romans, French, Zulus & Germans. It is currenlty in the first third of the Industrial age. France is actually in the lead by about 300 points. What I found very interesting is that over the last 5 turns 15-16 AI cities have flipped to me, averaging about 3 per turn. I have almost doubled the size of my empire without firing a shot.

	12-07-2002 03:26									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Map settings and difficulty level play a significant role. Religious is more important on Emperor and Deity (1 citizen born content), while Scientific is better at the lower difficulties. Industrious is always helpful, but even more so the larger and younger the map. On large and huge pangaea maps, expansionist is too powerful to forget about, even as a builder. Being able to build all the Ancient era improvements because of goody hut techs almost right from the get go.

My favorite builder scenario is to use no civ traits or goody huts though. It might sound counter productive, but it is possible to build every wonder on Monarch with a decent starting position (map settings standard). The Oracle tends to be the hardest one to snag. That's the 'ultimate' builder goal from my perspective.

	12-07-2002 03:55									#10
	Put an end to popups!

Although I am a big fan of Egypt I'm really impressed with Persia as a builder civ.
It has two excellent traits for a builder (Ind+Sci) and one of the best UU's in the game. If you're determined to play pure peaceful builder then you won't care about the UU, but in most games you will want to start a couple of ancient era wars to get territory, even if you don't intend to play as a warmonger.
Persia has a great deal of flexibility in this department and is probably the best hybrid-type Civ IMHO.